Compulsory helmet wearing for children under 16 mooted.

[very-near]

How do you 'force choice'?

see my last post Bollo. Your kids are still at an age where you can lay the (your) law down to them. It is an eye opener when they turn around and tell you to fcuk off because they don't like the rules you make.

They may not quite put it like that, but one day, you will feel quite inadequate when they realise 'your laws/rules are ones they can ignore at their own discretion.

This is where the laws of society step in to protect them as individuals and the rest of us from their actions. It also protects the children from the willful stupidity of their parents who would transpose their misguided ideology on their kids.

Riding hats are an entirely sensible proposition for horse riders under the age of 14 and likewise for young cyclists.

 

[Bollo]

Linf,

First of all, we're in Campaigning. Not P&L, not the P&L lite that is commuting, or even Cafe. Campaigning. Look at the tone of the posts in here. They're generally serious, considered and balanced. They're usually posted by Origamist.

If I remember correctly, the last time a thread veered off on to the topic of child-rearing and opinions thereof, the mods had to pile-in quick-sharp like a pride of nightclub bouncers before it all kicked off in a very very ugly way.

So, without expressing any further opinion, I'm going to take a deep breath and quietly make you the one and only member of my ignore list. It's best for both our sakes. Night night.

 

[very-near]

Linf,

First of all, we're in Campaigning. Not P&L, not the P&L lite that is commuting, or even Cafe. Campaigning. Look at the tone of the posts in here. They're generally serious, considered and balanced. They're usually posted by Origamist.

If I remember correctly, the last time a thread veered off on to the topic of child-rearing and opinions thereof, the mods had to pile-in quick-sharp like a pride of nightclub bouncers before it all kicked off in a very very ugly way.

So, without expressing any further opinion, I'm going to take a deep breath and quietly make you the one and only member of my ignore list. It's best for both our sakes. Night night.

Ignore the poster when your belief system is challenged Bollo.

As a parent, I have a much a right to air my opinion on this matter as any other here. We as adults rationalise the subject of cyclehats for minors because they themselves are not mature enough to do so.

The fact you have stomped off in a huff because you don't like what I have to say is indicative that you yourself lack the maturity to debate this very serious issue of safety also.

Perhaps it is for the best that you have...

 

[skrx]

This is where the laws of society step in to protect them as individuals and the rest of us from their actions.

And so many teenagers obey all the laws they see as pointless... (drink, drugs, sex, age limits for entry to places.

Anyway, we don't have laws to protect ourselves, we have laws to protect *others* from our actions.

If you want to force your child to wear a helmet, tell them to. If you see them riding without it, confiscate their bike.

 

[MacB]

Linford, your arguements don't follow any logical chain, by your own reasoning you should have enforced safety helmet wear on your children for a myriad of activities other than cycling. Equating non-wearing of helmets with non wearing of a jacket/jumper on a cold day is nonsensical:-

don't wear enough clothes = guaranteed to get too cold, experience discomfort and possbily get ill

don't wear a cycle helmet = nothing guaranteed, either way, certainly no greater risk of head injury than for many other activities

If you have any hard data to back up your position I'd like to hear it, your own perceived wisdom isn't enough.

 

[very-near]

And so many teenagers obey all the laws they see as pointless... (drink, drugs, sex, age limits for entry to places.

Anyway, we don't have laws to protect ourselves, we have laws to protect *others* from our actions.

If you want to force your child to wear a helmet, tell them to. If you see them riding without it, confiscate their bike.

Well, I do agree with you on the issue of other stuff, but then you don't see many teeenagers having sex on the side of the high st.

Kids don't worry about personal safety because their parents do the worrying for them. I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen kids riding down the road with their cycle hats attached to the handlebars where they have obviously put it on when leaing the house, and taken it off when they get around the corner.

 

[very-near]

Linford, your arguements don't follow any logical chain, by your own reasoning you should have enforced safety helmet wear on your children for a myriad of activities other than cycling. Equating non-wearing of helmets with non wearing of a jacket/jumper on a cold day is nonsensical:-

don't wear enough clothes = guaranteed to get too cold, experience discomfort and possbily get ill

don't wear a cycle helmet = nothing guaranteed, either way, certainly no greater risk of head injury than for many other activities

If you have any hard data to back up your position I'd like to hear it, your own perceived wisdom isn't enough.

Cycling is a potentially high impact activity (especially when mixed with traffic) There are many high impact activities where the use of a hat is becoming a fairly standard piece of kit safety Horseriding/ski'ing/motorcycing/skating/climbing etc etc

You don't have a magic shield around you when doing any of these things. Why should cycling be any different ?

 

[skrx]

I've just come across the CBBC News article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_8260000/newsid_8262800/8262826.stm which includes this:
"And there have also been studies that say helmets can make life more dangerous on the roads, because they make cyclists think they're safer than they actually are.

Some say that can encourage cyclists to take bigger risks when riding."

Also: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_3150000/newsid_3150100/3150157.stm
"You don't have to wear a helmet by law and there's a big debate about whether or not it's a good idea, so ask your parents what they want you to do."

 

[MacB]

Cycling is a potentially high impact activity (especially when mixed with traffic) There are many high impact activities where the use of a hat is becoming a fairly standard piece of kit safety Horseriding/ski'ing/motorcycing/skating/climbing etc etc

You don't have a magic shield around you when doing any of these things. Why should cycling be any different ?

so still no hard data then!

 

[very-near]

so still no hard data then!

This isn't exactly new data is it. It's not my fault if you choose to ignore it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/990853.stm

 

[MartinC]

So instead of actually ................. you feel qualified to lay down the law to other parents Martin ?

Linf, get a grip. I can't answer your question because it's not logical. Most of the post quoted is a reflection of what's in your mind and totally unrelated to anything I've said.

For example "lay the law down" - just think for a minute and come up with an instance of when I've done this. Your argument seems to be that unless I collude with you to enforce something you want then I'm forcing something on people. Clearly this is untenable hyperbole.

Back to the OP. If a Paediatrician, on behalf of their professional association is calling for mandatory helmets for children then it's reasonable to expect them to explain their rationale a bit better than "it's common sense". Don't you agree?

 

[MartinC]

This isn't exactly new data is it. It's not my fault if you choose to ignore it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/990853.stm

This article published in 2000 doesn't show the figures for the claimed increase in helmet wearing in the study group between 1991 and 1995. Do you know if they had any or was it an assumption? I'm genuinely interested.

Given that the number of admissions to hospital in the years compared were very similar (about 1% different) and the study posits a causal correlation between helmet wearing and reduced admissions for head injuries then it must also be positing a causal correlation between helmet wearing and increased admissions for other injuries.

These analyses are often compromised by small sample sizes and incomplete data for other changes in the environment and can be used to draw false conclusions. This appears to be the case here.

 

[Jonathan M]

I suppose that if his field is paediatrics (sp?) then he doesn't have to deal with all the lardy couch potatoes who can't walk up the stairs without getting out of breath.

No, he probably recognises that obesity in childhood and adolesence has increased massively, but will be seeing things from a (flawed) right to wear helmet/wrong not to wear one stance.

Incidentally I wear a helmet & won't let my son ride a bike without one.

 

[summerdays]

I've ummed and ahhed over whether I should put in my point of view, so here goes: whether you wear a helmet as an adult is a personal choice for you - and I think that is right.

Whether a child wears a helmet I think is personal choice of the parents in charge of the child.

My kids have worn them when they were young - and had plenty of small off's. The eldest is currently not wearing one as she hates it - not cool for a teenager but then she rarely goes on a bike.

You shouldn't make it compulsory as it would either be a law which was ignored or it would prevent children from taking up cycling. If the result is that they never learn then that would be awful in the long time.

Even if they were made to wear helmets - who is going to police whether they are adjusted properly - I have to adjust mine regularly, most kids I see with helmets have the straps really loose.

 

[very-near]

I've ummed and ahhed over whether I should put in my point of view, so here goes: whether you wear a helmet as an adult is a personal choice for you - and I think that is right.

Whether a child wears a helmet I think is personal choice of the parents in charge of the child.

My kids have worn them when they were young - and had plenty of small off's. The eldest is currently not wearing one as she hates it - not cool for a teenager but then she rarely goes on a bike.

You shouldn't make it compulsory as it would either be a law which was ignored or it would prevent children from taking up cycling. If the result is that they never learn then that would be awful in the long time.

Even if they were made to wear helmets - who is going to police whether they are adjusted properly - I have to adjust mine regularly, most kids I see with helmets have the straps really loose.

I've heard this old chestnut so many times with motorcycling and crash helmets as well. The reality is that people will ride a cycle because they want to and will put up with the constraints the law throws at them regarding safety equipment as do motorcyclists. You don't see any hells angels riding without a lid on a roads in the UK, but helmet wearing in the states is often ignored because the riders have this invincibility attitude towards their mortality (until they come off) and also because not all states enforce it - have you seen how many people die on motorcycles as a percentage over there by comparison to the UK ?

As for scooter kids wearing their helmets at a jaunty angle in the UK - they are still in the age of stupid and do get injured even if their scoots are barely faster than a quick roadie.