Close pass on an 8 year old...

[S-Express]

Then where is? Where do people with children safely ride? In parks? What about if they're trying to actually get somewhere?

No idea sorry, I don't live anywhere near Ham.

 

[S-Express]

The clip shows an area that is more than safe for an 8 year old accompanied by an adult

Wait - you think the clip shows a safe riding environment? Quite clearly it isn't safe - as evidenced by the close pass in the face of oncoming traffic.

I would love to know what level of training you had to run Go - ride sessions, as you seem to be a tad shall we say, risk averse.

Go-ride coaches need to be at least BC level 1 (I am level 2). If by 'risk' you mean 'danger', then yes, of course I am risk averse where kids are concerned. Risks can sometimes be mitigated, and in my view the best way of mitigating the risk shown in that clip would be to not put a child with that level of skill into what I would regard as a busy urban environment.

 

[Tim Hall]

You obviously don't see any issue with the riding, which is fine. I used to coach riding skills at a go-ride club and I see a few things wrong. I think we've already accepted that the driving was at best CD30 and possibly DD40.

What do CD30 and DD40 mean?

 

[S-Express]

What do CD30 and DD40 mean?

https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-endorsements/endorsement-codes-and-penalty-points

 

[Andy_R]

Wait - you think the clip shows a safe riding environment? Quite clearly it isn't safe - as evidenced by the close pass in the face of oncoming traffic.



Go-ride coaches need to be at least BC level 1 (I am level 2). If by 'risk' you mean 'danger', then yes, of course I am risk averse where kids are concerned. Risks can sometimes be mitigated, and in my view the best way of mitigating the risk shown in that clip would be to not put a child with that level of skill into what I would regard as a busy urban environment.

So no actual training in delivering the National Standard of on road cycle training? As endorsed by the DfT and just about every cycling training organisation in the country, including British Cycling? As for "Risks can sometimes be mitigated" - you are wrong. Risks can always be mitigated. And, by the way, where in the clip, is this busy urban environment? Would you rather the young lady cycled in a cul de sac with no traffic, gaining no experience, and no confidence? Or would it be better to allow her to grow in both?

 

[S-Express]

So no actual training in delivering the National Standard of on road cycle training?

I've only ever said that her basic handling skills and general confidence (which is the focus of Go-Ride, if you actually look it up) seemed low.

As for "Risks can sometimes be mitigated" - you are wrong. Risks can always be mitigated

Not sure why you think that - it simply isn't true. If the risk is deemed as too great, it becomes unacceptable.

And, by the way, where in the clip, is this busy urban environment?

The one where the road is effectively narrowed to a single lane by parked traffic on the opposite side of the road. It's just my opinion, it's ok to disagree.

Would you rather the young lady cycled in a cul de sca with no traffic, gaining no experience, and no confidence? Or would it be better to allow her to grow in both?

As I've said a few times now - I'd rather see her handling skills improved first, before letting her out into that kind of environment.

 

[Andy_R]

I've only ever said that her basic handling skills and general confidence (which is the focus of Go-Ride, if you actually look it up) seemed low. Go back and have a read, maybe.



Not sure why you think that - it simply isn't true. If the risk is deemed as too great, it becomes unacceptable.



The one where the road is effectively narrowed to a single lane by parked traffic on the opposite side of the road. It's just my opinion, it's ok to disagree.



As I've said a few times now (maybe you missed the other times) - I'd rather see her handling skills improved first, before letting her out into that kind of environment.

Oh dear....

So, to deliver on road training, you need to be able to assess a rider's ability and to develop it. In this case you would simply bin her and say no. She is capable of riding, is anticipating the road ahead, is able to look behind without wobbling (which you innaccurately described in your initial opinion) and is riding at a sensible cadence and is not panicing. All good so far.....

All risk can be mitigated. Simples. If an activity is too risky, then the mitigation is to not undertake it.

The carriageway whilst being narrowed to a single lane is still wide enough for a cycluist and oncoming traffic to pass with enough space. Even if this were not the case, would you then say that no one should cycle past a parked car? Or should one learn how to do so?

 

[S-Express]

So, to deliver on road training...

Go-Ride activities do not take place on open roads. Other schemes do that, but as I've said several times now, go-ride focuses on handling and skills development in an 'off road' (ie not on the roads) environment. I didn't say she wobbled - I said she looked left and then veered right, which is typical of a rider who has not learned to compensate for body movement (something which is taught in go-ride sessions). I've seen plenty of newbie adults do it to, to be fair.

All risk can be mitigated. Simples. If an activity is too risky, then the mitigation is to not undertake it.

Yep - that's what I said, but without your emphasis on semantics.

The carriageway whilst being narrowed to a single lane is still wide enough for a cycluist and oncoming traffic to pass with enough space. Even if this were not the case, would you then say that no one should cycle past a parked car? Or should one learn how to do so?

Absolultely one should learn how to do so. Once one has acquired the necessary level of skill to be in that environment.

 

[S-Express]

She's about 3ft out from the kerb at around 9s when she looks back, before moving in again. We only have this short clip to go on (I presume this doesn't show the entirety of the journey), and my take on it is that she is not up to riding in that environment with her current handling skill level. I'm happy to accept that your view may be different.

 

[ufkacbln]

Think about what you just said.

I did

Residential areas generally have lots of cars travelling to/fro.

But are not that busy as the use is infrequent, also because there will be children, dogs and driveways the drivers will be expecting "hazards" and driving accordingly - making it safe

Public parks generally have lots of people driving in and out of them.

Only at specific entrances and exits. Again at these they should be aware of dogs, cyclists, children and driving accordingly - making it safe

Built up areas with a lot of traffic and a lot of roadside parking and side roads/junctions.

This is not a built up area it is a residential area with a park and restricted parking....Once again with a park and restricted parking drivers should be driving with due regard to possible hazards such as dogs, children, pedestrians and doors opening - this increased awareness making it safer

What I am describing is a safe environment for an 8yo to cycle in. Which ironically, seems to be self-evident from the clip

The only "unsafe" element was the Range Rover driver, and they would be a danger to any cyclist who got in their way on any road

I did love the concept that ANY road with parked cars, junctions, driveways residential or built up is by definition unsafe.

Applying these criteria no-one would ever ride a bike anywhere. My quiet cul-de sac where the kids play football in the street is a death-trap according to these definitions.Yet somehow none of us have killed or maimed the children because we drive with care and courtesy

One - despite the insurmountable odds has recently celebrated their tenth birthday, and there is even .... a surviving teenager

 

[S-Express]

But are not that busy as the use is infrequent, also because there will be children, dogs and driveways the drivers will be expecting "hazards" and driving accordingly - making it safe

Only at specific entrances and exits. Again at these they should be aware of dogs, cyclists, children and driving accordingly - making it safe

This is not a built up area it is a residential area with a park and restricted parking....Once again with a park and restricted parking drivers should be driving with due regard to possible hazards such as dogs, children, pedestrians and doors opening - this increased awareness making it safer

Except the Range Rover driver (male or female) didn't do any of that, which kind of negates everything you just said. I think I've said this to you before - assumption is the mother of all you-know-whats.

It is hilarious that you are making the claim this is a safe environment, when we are discussing a video clip of someone making a dangerous close pass in that very same 'safe' environment.

 

[Scoosh]

MOD NOTE
Please stop the to-and-fro on whether the environment is safe, whether the child was riding with sufficient skills and concentrate on whether the pass by the RR driver was safe or not.

Thank you.

 

[MontyVeda]

I think we're all in agreement on the overtake by the Range Rover being unsafe.

 

[S-Express]

Please stop the to-and-fro on whether the environment is safe, whether the child was riding with sufficient skills and concentrate on whether the pass by the RR driver was safe or not.

As MontyVeda says above, I don't think anyone here needs to dispute whether the pass is safe or not - there is nothing to dispute there anyway. The topic of safe environment and riding skills is much more relevant and has been generally good natured with no abuse that I'm aware of.

 

[mjr]

Posted by Tim Lennon, the Secretary of the Cycling Embassy of Great Britain and the first thing he does is to make a hand gesture. However innocent it may look I don't think it is a good idea.

Oh well that completely excuses the close-pass of his child, doesn't it?

Then where is? Where do people with children safely ride? In parks? What about if they're trying to actually get somewhere?

Exactly - and how would they get to a park if they don't live right by one?

I would love to know what level of training you had to run Go - ride sessions, as you seem to be a tad shall we say, risk averse.

"Go - ride sessions", also called "go away sessions" because they turn away the majority of riders who don't use crash helmets, which seems just bizarre because they're cycling around a flat bouncy-surfaced athletics track in lanes, which they'd be allowed to run around in much closer proximity to each other without helmets despite the far greater risk of tripping each other up. And most of the children who turn up and get turned away have cycled to the hosting sports centre anyway because it's not like teenagers/tweenies can drive their bikes there.

Those sessions are not about riding skills as much as getting youngsters ready to race within the strictures of the UCI/BC format.

What do CD30 and DD40 mean?

It means the person writing is far more familiar with driving offence codes than most people.

So, to deliver on road training, you need to be able to assess a rider's ability and to develop it. In this case you would simply bin her and say no.

Yes, I suspect it's part of why go-away sessions report such impressive results with the children that they do allow to keep riding with them.