Charlie Alliston case - fixie rider accused of causing pedestrian death

[KnackeredBike]

@srw I'm still not sure I understand what is dangerous about it, from the description he was cycling at 18mph whilst overtaking a parked lorry. Something I would do without issue albeit with brakes. I don't quite know how you can be "helplessly stranded" as a ped in that situation.

Without regressing the thread I don't cycle at a speed where I could prevent every conceivable but unlikely collision. Having cycled in London it would be almost impossible there where you need to cycle somewhat aggressively if you don't want to be bullied off the road.

In the end where do you draw the line - caliper brakes are rubbish in the wet, if I slam into a ped who walks out in front of me in a situation where disk brakes would have stopped me am I in the wrong too? What about riding on 23c tyres, I could stop more quickly with MTB tyres. You could go on forever getting a slightly safer bike.

 

[Johnsop99]

You can legislate for new bike sales but how can you deal with the secondhand market? as I believe CA's bike was a used bike purchase from a private individual.

 

[srw]

I don't quite know how you can be "helplessly stranded" as a ped in that situation.

Take it up with the judge. She knows much more than you about what happened, and has decided that Alliston was a dangerous cyclist - generally and in the specific instance.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Hardly surprising... and actually, would it be that bad if bike shops stopped selling brakeless bikes?

True but why should thousands of track cyclists have to buy bikes with a brake fitted and forks drilled for the same, because some nobber rode one on the road?

 

[youngoldbloke]

Are 'thousands' of track cyclists really likely to be buying their bikes from high street stores?

Personally, I believe that it is the responsibility of the cyclist to ensure that the bike he is using is road legal. I'm not actually advocating banning shops from selling bikes without brakes - I was merely trying to question whether it would be the end of the world. After all, we place other restrictions on sales of various items, where some may be inconvenienced...

Where do you think they come from? If you want a relatively inexpensive bike to ride at the velodrome you'll be looking at Planet X, Dolan, Ribble, Wiggle, Chain Reaction, and so on - or it might be second hand of course. If you are a member of Team GB , OK, your bike might come from a more 'specialized' source. I agree it is the responsibilty of the rider, and if you ride a velodrome-fit bike on the road - that is no brakes fitted - you should be prosecuted.

 

[KnackeredBike]

Take it up with the judge. She knows much more than you about what happened, and has decided that Alliston was a dangerous cyclist - generally and in the specific instance.

I am prepared to bet that most of us know a lot more about the realities of cycling through a busy city and the compromises needed than the judge.

 

[Alan O]

While I really do empathise with Matt Briggs in his loss, and getting cycle retailers to make it clear that track bikes with no brakes are illegal for use on the road might help educate a few, I think any attempt to ban their sales in retail shops is misguided.

Others suggest that the legal situation which means cyclists are open to either manslaughter or ancient "furious cycling" charges and nothing in between is silly, and I agree.

My view is that we might get further by considering the extension of "Causing death by careless/dangerous..." laws to cover all kinds of locomotion. It wouldn't address the tribal mentality of "Cyclists are automatically right and everyone else is automatically wrong" which has sadly surfaced in this and other discussions on various forums, or the "whataboutery" that suggests other unrelated poor legal decisions mean this irresponsible scrote should be let off, but at least it might help level the playing field in legal terms.

 

[KnackeredBike]

Would it be reasonable to ask you not to use the word ped when referring to person on foot?

Why?

 

[Alan O]

I am prepared to bet that most of us know a lot more about the realities of cycling through a busy city and the compromises needed than the judge.

I think you are right, but I would not include Charlie Alliston among that "most of us".

 

[mjr]

I'm slightly concerned about the helmet and bell comments, but only slightly - the judge is only rehashing the "common sense" "arguments" this place is chock-full of.

The helmet and bell comments are probably due to their inclusion in the highway code and cited as evidence of his disregard for its advice. We should all press for the unsupported-by-evidence cyclists clothing rule 59 to be removed from the highway code, but its inclusion in this judgment doesn't raise a new concern - we always knew that it would be used against any cyclist if they ended up in court. The bell bit is trickier because we'd probably also need it removed from the bicycle sale regulations.

Do you not think that, had he had chosen to use a bike with a working brake, and chosen to use it rather than shouting "get out of the £∆©¥ing way" twice, then there would be no story?

I think there would still have been a story headlined something like "Reckless Speeding Cyclist Kills Working Mother" - it just might not have run so long and he might not have been convicted of anything.

 

[srw]

I am prepared to bet that most of us know a lot more about the realities of cycling through a busy city and the compromises needed than the judge.

I agree. But I was referring to specific circumstances on a specific day that caused a specific death.

Although I think that cycling at a speed where I could prevent every conceivable but unlikely collision is a noble aim - and if I find myself riding aggressively I back off and reduce my level to assertive. It's served me extremely well over 21 years of peak-time commuting (main road as well as back road), and I've almost never been bullied off the road. If I am I simply shrug and get on with my day. Better bullied off the road than splatted all over it.

 

[srw]

No, there would have been no story because there would have been no collision.

...assuming he bothered to use his working brake...

 

[swansonj]

Take it up with the judge. She knows much more than you about what happened, ...

...and has decided that Alliston was a dangerous cyclist - generally and in the specific instance.

Agree on the first part but is the second part entirely true? I've always presumed that judges are constrained in what they can say in that they have to accept the jury verdict.

 

[srw]

I did include that bit.

One day I'll stop speed-reading!

 

[KnackeredBike]

Because abbreviations, diminutives, and nicknames for groups of people have a tendency to be used to reduce their status, and legitimacy.

I hope you will also be stopping using the words "car" and "taxi" in that case.