Charlie Alliston case - fixie rider accused of causing pedestrian death

[T4tomo]

and, there we have it, you can't back down and can't even acknowledge that the term 'nobber' in this instance is merely descriptive rather than name calling

Whilst I'm with you that repeatedly referring to crossing the road as Jay walking is misleading and frustrating, to a neutral, repeatedly using 'nobber' and derivations thereof comes across as name calling and a bit 'playground'

 

[GrumpyGregry]

And in Germany and Singapore I believe, but not GB

My previous post was about the UK. NI is part of the UK. Hence the teeny clarification.

 

[MacB]

Whilst I'm with you that repeatedly referring to crossing the road as Jay walking is misleading and frustrating, to a neutral, repeatedly using 'nobber' and derivations thereof comes across as name calling and a bit 'playground'

I know it was meant to, Mr P Rider had taken it upon himself to singlehandedly try to wreck this thread through his own sheer bloody mindedness. As it's a thread I've been following it irked me to find new activity was so often more of the PR nonsense. Trust me nobber and derivations thereof were far and away the most polite of the responses I considered.

 

[Buddfox]

What did it mean to you?

That the pedestrians were crossing the road without paying attention

 

[Buddfox]

"The pedestrian was jaywalking" is a statement of opinion disguised as a fact, but the fact it is disguised as is an incorrect fact. It conveys your disapproval of the pedestrian's action by labelling it a crime when it is not a crime. That is being challenged because incorrect facts should not be acceptable - and because debate usually proceeds better when we present our opinions as such and don't try to claim a status for them that they don't have.

I can't find one example in this thread of anyone claiming that jaywalking is a crime in the UK, so no-one is labelling the actions as a crime. In that regard, the statement is no different than saying "The pedestrian should have been on the crossing". Both are opinions, and both apportion some blame to the pedestrian. Perhaps let's try and keep the debate on whether the pedestrian should have been on the crossing or not, as opposed to over-worked criticism of a perfectly understandable word.

 

[Inertia]

That the pedestrians were crossing the road without paying attention

This illustrates the problem, to you it meant that the pedestrians were crossing without paying attention.

Pale Rider seemed to define it as crossing the road anywhere other than at a pedestrian crossing.

Crossing the road in this country is not limited to pedestrian crossings and merely crossing the road somewhere else does not mean the pedestrian is not paying attention.

 

[Pale Rider]

Pale Rider seemed to define it as crossing the road anywhere other than at a pedestrian crossing.

That is true, I only used the term 'jaywalking' because I prefer using one word to using 10 words.

To some others on here, jaywalking has a perjorative meaning.

To some others, it does not.

It's a matter of opinion, or rather perception, not a matter of right or wrong.

 

[Buddfox]

That's what we are doing. Pale Rider stated that 'the pedestrian was jaywalking' as somehow a contributory factor to what happened. The pedestrian was not jaywalking, the pedestrian was crossing the road. Being on a crossing or not is irrelevant.

I am reading the thread differently to you. In most cases (but not all), the criticism is of the use of the term, rather than its implications. "Jaywalking has no meaning in the UK" etc. etc.

 

[Inertia]

That is true, I only used the term 'jaywalking' because I prefer using one word to using 10 words.

To some others on here, jaywalking has a perjorative meaning.

To some others, it does not.

It's a matter of opinion, or rather perception, not a matter of right or wrong.

To be fair I think it has a perjorative meaning for many people including Buddfox, who I hope wont mind me mentioning him, whose definition is one that a lot of people would share.

I think Jaywalking, as a definition for people who cross the road without using a crossing, is a minority definition.

 

[Buddfox]

This illustrates the problem, to you it meant that the pedestrians were crossing without paying attention.

Pale Rider seemed to define it as crossing the road anywhere other than at a pedestrian crossing.

Crossing the road in this country is not limited to pedestrian crossings and merely crossing the road somewhere else does not mean the pedestrian is not paying attention.

I just don't see it as a problem, that it is expressed in those terms. I have no information to determine whether the pedestrians were paying attention or not, and I don't consider it to be particularly relevant anyway, because I believe that other road users should be looking out for people stepping into the road, and not the other way around. But the tone of the conversation is sadly lowered when people just resort to insulting other users for giving an opinion.

 

[Inertia]

That is true, I only used the term 'jaywalking' because I prefer using one word to using 10 words.

Just to add, those 10 words could have saved you a lot more words down the line.

 

[Inertia]

The word jaywalking was coined to be pejorative. Jay was an established American term for dullard, hick, or bumkin. Jaywalking was invented from that as part of a campaign by the motor industry to get rights to be on the road shifted from people to people in cars.
They have pretty much won that in America but, as David Bowie wrote, this is not America and we can continue to hope for a better degree of civilization here.

Absolutely, we should fight the use of a word that helped to make american roads the way they are.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

A more even-handed view is they are designed to do both

If we're doing even-handed views, you wouldn't describe crossing a road elsewhere than at a crossing as jaywalking.

 

[Buddfox]

To be fair I think it has a perjorative meaning for many people including Buddfox, who I hope wont mind me mentioning him, whose definition is one that a lot of people would share.

I think Jaywalking, as a definition for people who cross the road without using a crossing, is a minority definition.

Of course no issue, but to be clear: I attach a pejorative meaning to the use of the term, but I do not agree that such negative connotations should be attached to either pedestrian in these cases, so far as I have understood the facts which are available.

 

[MacB]

I can't decide if the ignorance is wilfull or genuine but here's a theoretical that may clarify for some:-

The person was crossing the road and was.....
The person was jaywalking and was.....

If those mean the same to you then these do as well:-

The young lady was walking home when she was....
The young lady, dressed provocatively and having had too much to drink, was walking home when she was.....