Carlton Grand Prix

[robsa]

Oooh @ raleighnut. Saturday night Sunday morning.
One of my fav films, saw it first about 1987 when I was working in a factory as a lathe operator and it summed up everything I felt about the job.

 

[raleighnut]

Oooh @ raleighnut. Saturday night Sunday morning.
One of my fav films, saw it first about 1987 when I was working in a factory as a lathe operator and it summed up everything I felt about the job.

The guy who wrote the book and the film adaptation (Alan Sillitoe) had worked at Raleigh in Nottingham, no wonder he'd got it right.

 

[Illaveago]

Just when you think you may have sorted one problem another one pops up. Whilst we were talking about frame numbers I thought I would double check the frame number on my BSA, and on the bottom bracket I found HC7437. Using the frame number ID for Raleighs this would be Handsworth February 1967. This would more or less fit in with my Sun Mist which I had for Christmas 1966. Now this is where I am confused, my Sun had a made in Worksop badge instead of Birmingham yet the Raleigh group were still making cycles in Birmingham.
I think the bike may have originally green all over, I put the silver bands to break it up a bit and as for transfers I cannot remember.

 

[mikeymustard]

Didn't they only introduce the two letter prefix in 1973?

 

[Illaveago]

Didn't they only introduce the two letter prefix in 1973?

I am not sure but the year seems to fit for this bike but as for my BSA Tour De France that has a single letter W which would be Workshop and is from 1978. My Carlton Competition has a 7 digit number I think, I'll have to check but it is a 73 frame.

 

[mikeymustard]

According to Kurt Kaminer's site there were at least 4 or 5 different numbering systems extant in the early 70s that could all have potentially run into 1973 so until the "standardised" two letter prefix I think it would be very difficult to date a frame using its serial no. so if possible you'd have to use original components instead to help clarify age

 

[Illaveago]

According to Kurt Kaminer's site there were at least 4 or 5 different numbering systems extant in the early 70s that could all have potentially run into 1973 so until the "standardised" two letter prefix I think it would be very difficult to date a frame using its serial no. so if possible you'd have to use original components instead to help clarify age

I'll have to look on the back of the Weinmann brakes on the green BSA but I think it will verify my date. The Carlton Competition has a 531 transfer on the seat tube that was used up to 1973. I'll take another look at them in the morning.

 

[mikeymustard]

Was somebody in the Raleigh Group stamping department having fun thinking "This will keep them guessing for years".

I've read somewhere (can't remember where) that individual builders might stamp any old number onto the frame at one point
Also (it's raining outside and I'm bored) classic rendezvous claims all Suns had Worksop badges by 1963.
I've actually forgotten what the thread was about we've gone round the houses so much; I've just had to remind myself by rereading it!

 

[Illaveago]

Yes it is confusing , I thought I would try to find out where the BSA was made and when. I assumed it was made in Workshop along with my Sun, but if the H on the frame number is correct in placing it in Handsworth it only adds to the confusion as I read somewhere that Raleigh assembled mopeds at that factory.
Never mind it was just one of those moments when you think you would like to research something.

 

[Illaveago]

Just a thought! They didn't have an Enigma machine did they?

 

[mikeymustard]

Just a thought! They didn't have an Enigma machine did they?

LOL, well as a top secret code they're doing pretty well!< spy

 

[Spokesmann]

Just a note Sun production was moved to Worksop around 1962/3. Another confusing item re numbering, when Sun production moved to Worksop, the Sun machines adopted the same numbering convention used by Carlton, i.e. a letter prefix. HOWEVER just to make things complicated Sun machines were supposed to start with 'A' and Carlton carried on with their normal numbering,so for 62/63 it was K or L. Trouble was that quite soon the Worksop Suns took on the same numbering prefixes as Carlton... still with me? Then in and around 68 the letter prefixes were dropped in favour of an all number system, except that it seem for bikes like the Professional they still used a letter prefix system, then in 72 the W prefix was brought in with numbers frame number and also numbers denoting year and month. W was for Worksop, N for Nottingham. The whole system was a confusing mess. Im not surprised that owners now can get no sense out out the frame nos carried by these old machines.

 

[Spokesmann]

Another way of dating machines, assuming parts are original is, as has been pointed out, check brake castings, but also check underside of leather saddles, Brooks and Wrights all date stamped their saddle's chassis. This can sometimes give a clue to a machines ages, assuming it came with the bike.

 

[Spokesmann]

Some numbering examples - Cartlon Constellation, 1958:

My 1965 Snipe plus, this has 'Carlton' numbering, except they put the letter prefix at the end!

If the numbering adopted the Sun system i.e. from 1962 builds on from Worksop, it should have been a C or D...

 

[Illaveago]

Those are good sharp pictures and the bikes are very clean.