Carbon Clinchers or Aluminium

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jowwy

Can't spell, Can't Punctuate....Sue Me
Because it's a minute difference. Keep up.
ok i'll bow to your superior knowledge Sir Dusty
 

Mr Haematocrit

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Not really. Why do you think such a minute difference it is important?

How are you quantifying that the difference is minute? - going by the same statement the lateral stiffness of a carbon frame should be a little more than that of an aluminium frame, yet we know that to not be the case.

The modulus of elasticity of carbon T700 commonly used for carbon clinchers is 120 GPA, the tensile strength is 2550 MPA with a density of 1.5 g/CC compared to Aluminium 7075 which is an aerospace grade material which far exceeds the specification used for production of wheels. This has a elasticity of 71.7, tensile strength of 570, and a density of 2.81.

The result is that with composites you typically end up with a lighter, stiffer, stronger wheel... if you believe that lateral stiffness is not important perhaps taking a couple of spokes out of your wheel would convince you otherwise. (NOTE: sarcastic comment to express a view don't do this, its dangerous)
Ultimately a wheel which has poor lateral stiffness will flex when placed under load and have poor handling as such any improvement in this area is not only desirable however minute but sort after. It was this as much as anything that prompted the move to composite rims

In the real world areo advantage from a wheel set will beat wheel weight the majority of the time, when the pro tour teams who have a selection of wheels to choose from will still commonly use are wheels on all but the very steepest of climbs. There is also wind tunnel data available supporting this.

As I have explained why lateral stiffness is important IMHO and presented the appropriate data which I believe supports this, could you please state in greater detail and provide any data you consider to be relevant to enable us to understand your view.
 
How are you quantifying that the difference is minute? - going by the same statement the lateral stiffness of a carbon frame should be a little more than that of an aluminium frame, yet we know that to not be the case.

Minute in the sense that I can't detect a difference.

Ultimately a wheel which has poor lateral stiffness will flex when placed under load and have poor handling as such any improvement in this area is not only desirable however minute but sort after.

But we're not talking about 'poor' lateral stiffness, are we? We are talking about the difference between 'good' lateral stiffness and 'slightly better' lateral stiffness - which is why I said the difference is marginal.

In the real world areo advantage from a wheel set will beat wheel weight the majority of the time, when the pro tour teams who have a selection of wheels to choose from will still commonly use are wheels on all but the very steepest of climbs. There is also wind tunnel data available supporting this.

We're not talking about aero advantages - and pro teams are all on tubs anyway. I thought we were talking about clinchers. By the way - you do know that the aero benefits of deep sections are almost entirely negated in bunch riding, don't you? It certainly makes you wonder why the pros are riding them.

As I have explained why lateral stiffness is important IMHO and presented the appropriate data which I believe supports this, could you please state in greater detail and provide any data you consider to be relevant to enable us to understand your view.

To be fair, you haven't really said anything of real insight or value and the figures you quoted have no real practical meaning, as far as I can tell. I don't think that anyone would argue that carbon rims cannot be built lighter and stiffer than aluminium - the question is, can anyone really tell the difference. Although you are probably right that taking a few spokes out of my wheels will make them wobble a bit.
 
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Mr Haematocrit

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Minute in the sense that I can't detect a difference.

But we're not talking about 'poor' lateral stiffness, are we? We are talking about the difference between 'good' lateral stiffness and 'slightly better' lateral stiffness - which is why I said the difference is marginal.

Going by the modulus of the material aluminium and the modulus of carbon fibre, we are talking about questionable lateral stiffness of aluminium and exceptional lateral stiffness of carbon fibre. The modulus values presented clearly show this fact. The fact you personally can't detect a difference does not mean that the difference is minute.

We're not talking about aero advantages - and pro teams are all on tubs anyway. I thought we were talking about clinchers.

Wrong yet again... we are talking about clinchers and not all teams use tubs. UCI registered team AG2R widely use carbon clinchers and hAve do so for a couple of years.
http://www.roadbikeaction.com/Tech-...t-The-Real-Story-Behind-Carbon-Clinchers.html
A number of Omega pharma Quickstep riders were also equipped with carbon clinchers for the spring classics

To be fair, you haven't really said anything of real insight or value. Although you are probably right that taking a few spokes out of my wheels will make them wobble a bit.

Making statement such as that while presenting no data, or evidence to support your views even when asked amuses me greatly.. insight and value, pot calling the kettle black perhaps?
 
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Wrong yet again... we are talking about clinchers and not all teams use tubs. UCI registered team AG2R widely use carbon clinchers and hAve do so for a couple of years.
http://www.roadbikeaction.com/Tech-...t-The-Real-Story-Behind-Carbon-Clinchers.html
A number of Omega pharma Quickstep riders were also equipped with carbon clinchers for the spring classics

Posting a link to an article by someone who holds the same opinion is not evidence that you are correct :laugh: Also, some teams were on cross bikes for the spring classics - maybe we should all be riding them n all..?

Do you know what the reasoning was for OPQ and AG2R riding clinchers for those races, incidentally?

Making statement such as that while presenting no data, or evidence to support your views even when asked amuses me greatly.. insight and value, pot calling the kettle black perhaps?

I don't have to present any evidence in order to hold an opinion. You obviously have a point to prove though, although if 'lateral stiffness' is all you've got to argue in an attempt to justify carbon clinchers, then I have to say it is a bit lame. Meanwhile, I'll stick to aluminium clinchers and carbon tubs, ta. Those two sets of wheels probably cost less combined that a set of 202s, and I can spend the rest on consumables, entry fees and travel costs.
 
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D

Deleted member 20519

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Like others have said, with £700 I'd be looking to buy handbuilts and not factory wheels.
 

Mr Haematocrit

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Posting a link to an article by someone who holds the same opinion is not evidence that you are correct :laugh: Also, some teams were on cross bikes for the spring classics - maybe we should all be riding them n all..?

I agree with that, however I never presented another persons view as fact supporting my statements, I used that article to show that AG2R use clinchers and disprove your statement that all pro teams use tubs, which as stated is not the case.
If another persons view does not quantify this for you, what about a cycling press article examining the AG2R bike which also supports the fact that UCI registered pro teams use clinchers.
http://road.cc/content/news/20112-tour-tech-2010-take-peek-ag2r-and-radioshack-bikes

Do you know what the reasoning was for OPQ and AG2R riding clinchers for those races, incidentally?
As OPQ are sponsored by Zipp wheels, they have access to the entire range of wheels yet have run 303 clinchers for the spring classics since 2012 as advised by Zipp, the reason for this is that the clinchers has a wider rim which increases lateral stiffness for sprinting and cornering yet offers greater vertical compliance for more control, comfort, and durability on rough surfaces.

I don't have to present any evidence in order to hold an opinion. You obviously have a point to prove though, although if 'lateral stiffness' is all you've got to argue in an attempt to justify carbon clinchers, then I have to say it is a bit lame. Meanwhile, I'll stick to aluminium clinchers and carbon tubs, ta. Those two sets of wheels probably cost less combined that a set of 202s, and I can spend the rest on consumables, entry fees and travel costs.

I never suggested you do not hold a right to an opinion, even one that is unfounded. I also do not have a point to prove. It was you which questioned that clinchers were high performance wheels with the statement "So you're saying that carbon clinchers are 'high performance' wheels? How so?". I proceeded to answer your question in what I believe to be a clear and concise manner, if you respond to my statements / comments / opinions I believe I have a right to clarify them further. If you remain content with your purchases and choices then that's all we can hope for. :thumbsup:

If you want my opinion which is not based upon fact or evidence it is the OP will not get a great set of carbon clinchers for £700 and would be better off looking at quality hand built at that price range.
 
I never suggested you do not hold a right to an opinion, even one that is unfounded.

My opinion that such a small difference in 'lateral stiffness' is not a major consideration is perfectly valid - not sure why you think it is 'unfounded'.
 
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SquareDaff

SquareDaff

Über Member
If you want my opinion which is not based upon fact or evidence it is the OP will not get a great set of carbon clinchers for £700 and would be better off looking at quality hand built at that price range.
Just the question I was going to ask after reading previous posts. My next was going to be, can anyone suggest any places that they've used and would recommend?
 

jowwy

Can't spell, Can't Punctuate....Sue Me
Just the question I was going to ask after reading previous posts. My next was going to be, can anyone suggest any places that they've used and would recommend?
ive used dcr wheels and they are very good
 

VamP

Banned
Location
Cambs
Just the question I was going to ask after reading previous posts. My next was going to be, can anyone suggest any places that they've used and would recommend?


Someone in your club will know a good local wheelbuilder I am sure. The value of using a local builder is well worth having.
 

e-rider

Banned member
Location
South West
Dura Ace C24 £650 and lighter than Fulcrum Zeros (and probABLY better too although I've not tried either so wouldn't know really)
 
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