Car D.I.Y.

[Cletus Van Damme]

Here is the video for the job on PureTech Citroen engines. Mine is 1.2 non turbo, but looks very similar. Seems used car dealers are staying clear of these wet belt vehicles or low valuations to cover costs of repair

View: https://youtu.be/yNVooBE9vhA?si=Ufr6glb_K-zhFbOP

What an absolute pig of a job. It maybe saves a tiny bit on fuel economy. Its just making the job like replacing a timing chain. Would take years and years to pay back the fuel savings paying for a job like that. Then there's the possibilty of the belt doing more damage to the engine/turbo than it did on that one. Think I'll run my chain driven Civic into the ground then get a Mazda or an electric car. At least Mazda have the common sense to stick with a chain. Probably other manufacturers have too. I know the Mk 10 1.0 litre Civic had issues with a wet timing belt, which is why I bought a Mk9.

Think the sensible thing to do with cars is avoid the latest model with a new engine etc, wait until its been out a few years and research potential issues.

 

[Profpointy]

Indeed, the mass of th car itself is a different scale. Nefettheles, manufacturers work their too, lighter materials, etc, although that gets offset somewhat by greater expectations for equipment and safety which make and marginal gains in the engine even more valuabl3,

When you're chasing those marginal gains, as manufacturers are now being forced to do now mainy in the pursuit of emissions cleanliness, you play every card in the deck, even if it's a weak hand.

A former development engineer at Jaguar pretty much told me the same thing

 

[Drago]

It's the emissions. A one or two carbons improvement may make the difference from not being allowed to sell a car in a certain territory, to being able to sell but with big-O penalties, to being able to sell fairly freely.

They aren't making their own or our life's difficult for the fun (or are they...?) - its the pursuit or marginal gains that makes engines smaller and cleaner while still being able to deliver competitive performance.

If it weren't for emissions we could still get our 100-110ish bhp by rolling round in low stressed iron block four pots of 2 litres of thereabouts like we didminnthe seventies. Simple and inexpensive to manufacture and mend. Sadly people tend to like clean air, and combustion chamber design and exhaust after treatments only go so far. To meet modern targets the only way is to go smaller.

But hang on there, people still want similar performance and that's how we end up with wacky ideas like dual circuit cooling systems, variable inlet plenums, wet belts, active grille aerodynamics. Each of these on their own brings a minimal improvement but added together they start to become worthwhile and that's how the pursuit of minimal gains works.

If we want the cleanest air possible we just gotta roll with it or else go eleftric.

 

[Cletus Van Damme]

Here is the video for the job on PureTech Citroen engines. Mine is 1.2 non turbo, but looks very similar. Seems used car dealers are staying clear of these wet belt vehicles or low valuations to cover costs of repair

View: https://youtu.be/yNVooBE9vhA?si=Ufr6glb_K-zhFbOP

Never watched all of that, but most of it. There was no mention what I did watch, if the belt failed prematurely, if the car was serviced at the correct intervals. Any car should be maintained within the guidelines or more frequent. But these modern engines its absolutely paramount. Some people will skimp and really pay the price. Still a poor design though, adding a huge bill to people that like to keep cars for a longer period.

 

[Drago]

CVD makes a good point.

In thenold days on an old 100BHP iron block two litre Ford or Poxhaul engine you could get away with skipping on servicing, stretching the intervals, or even missing the odd one altogether provided the fluid levels were OK.

Not so on highly strung 100BHP or more small bore 3 pot that might only have 3 or 3.5 litre oil capacity. Start trying that and you'd have a hand grenade with the pin pulled.

 

[multitool]

Seems used car dealers are staying clear of these wet belt vehicles or low valuations to cover costs of repair

There are nearly 1 million Ford wet belt engines on the roads. If you get a million of anything there are going to be some issues, especially if you have humans not following service schedules...or those service schedules being a little optimistically widely spaced.

Some really good points about designers chasing economy have been made on this thread, and to me the notion of sticking a turbo on a 1000cc engine is a fairly big indicator that more is being asked of less.

Whoever said we are seeing end of the ICE is absolutely right, much as we saw the death of the steam train era.

 

[DRM]

The biggest problem with these Ford wet belt engines is the fact that Ford do their utmost to deny warranty claiming incorrect oil used, when they’re not serviced by a Ford dealership, even if there is evidence that the correct oil has been used at the correct interval, who on earth designs an engine that renders a perfectly good van worthless at 85,000 miles, that dealers will not touch

 

[multitool]

The biggest problem with these Ford wet belt engines is the fact that Ford do their utmost to deny warranty claiming incorrect oil used, when they’re not serviced by a Ford dealership, even if there is evidence that the correct oil has been used at the correct interval, who on earth designs an engine that renders a perfectly good van worthless at 85,000 miles, that dealers will not touch

Only if the belt has broken and lunched the engine, but of course a sensible move is to ignore the service schedules and change it early...8 years, or 80k miles. Also, you can drop the pan and check the filter for residues.

 

[Drago]

Very few dealers won't touch them. Just look at the buoyant values of used Festers.

 

[Drago]

Only if the belt has broken and lunched the engine, but of course a sensible move is to ignore the service schedules and change it early...8 years, or 80k miles. Also, you can drop the pan and check the filter for residues.

It doesnt need to break. If enough material detaches from the belt the debris blocks oil circulation and kerblammo!

 

[multitool]

True...hence checking the filter.

 

[Adam4868]

Checking the filter won't necessarily tell you...only an oil inspection can lead you to the possibility of disaster looming.
Imagine having rubber degrading in your engine oil overtime as a design lol.Having to drop the pan to test your engine oil to find if there's any rubber in it.,internal wet belts that clog up oil pick up pipes and filters.
Plus a servicing schedule that involves taking your engine apart.
Madness

 

[Drago]

On PSA engine it is supposedly possible to check by inserting a special tool through the oil filler to measure the belt for swelling.

Sadly there are many tales of folk being given the all clear only for the belt to fail completely a short time later.

The only guaranteed method is to change the belt fairly frequently.

Part or the original idea for Ford was that the belt would last the life of the engine so there was no requirement to ever replace it. On paper that was feasible, as the average ICE in the UK lasts only 10.5 years. Sadly, the reality is that it was poorly executed, which necessities belt changes on an engine never designed to receive them.

The PSA PukeTech isn't so bad in this regard as it was intended to have the belts a replaced t suitable intervals and the engine as deigned to accommodate this, so it's not such an onerous job an not hugely more expensive than replacing regular belt. The downside is that that the belt is even less robust than the ford Ecotec unit, and can often completely lunch the engine long before the belt change interval arrives. Sensible owners replace the belt at half the recommended interval which is from ideal is at least reasonably achievable and is even DIYable if you're brave. PSA have an improved belt which they claim solves the issue...

 

[CXRAndy]

Never watched all of that, but most of it. There was no mention what I did watch, if the belt failed prematurely, if the car was serviced at the correct intervals. Any car should be maintained within the guidelines or more frequent. But these modern engines its absolutely paramount. Some people will skimp and really pay the price. Still a poor design though, adding a huge bill to people that like to keep cars for a longer period.

I watched another video from a used car dealer. He highlighted all the common problems with the pure tech engines. The three major and quiet regular problems are

Excessive oil usage, caused by PC Valve failing, cheapest fault.

Worn piston rings, smoky engine, oil usage. Engine and car almost worthless on second hand market.

Cambelt fraying, causing oil warning to oil starvation resulting in spun bearings cam and crank. Ruined engine.

He will not buy any vehicle with these pure tech 1.2 litre engines whether normally aspirated or trubo, which go in just about every French car.

He gave a simple check for the cambelt, you can see the belt through the oil fill port. I checked mine this morning. Thankfully there is no sign of cracking in the belt. All the same though I will be arranging a belt change .

He mentioned you can with a bit of shopping around at main dealers get the cambelt done for around £500. Far cheaper Than my initial quote

He said regular on time servicing is no barrier to failing cambelts or oil burning issues. He said they are crap engines

 

[multitool]

Cars are effectively white goods these days.

25 years ago, your Zanussi washing machine would go on forever and if the main bearings failed they were replaceable. These days, the entire machine lasts a given number of cycles which often weirdly coincides with a five year period, then it craps out and is not repairable economically.

Ditto cars. The only difference is that the retail price of cars has not decreased in line with their decreased lifespan. They are ridiculously expensive.

Added to which, people are not buying what they think they are buying. A Mercedes might have the same platform as a Jeep, or a Citroën. The quality of a BWM is no longer a thing.

Nor are they easily repairable at home. I saw some sort of electric Kia go past me on the commute last night. It had a profile not dissimilar to a 911, but the tail light was a solid band of LEDS that stretched right across the boot.

It looked cool as fûck, but it did occur to me that if and when it, or part of it failed it would likely run into many 100s to replace it. Ditto some VAG cars that need the front bumper removed to change a bulb