Calling forum gun experts. How does a dummy firearm kill?

[Alex321]

Let's just say someone drops a pistol, and it discharges a round that hits and kills someone. Accident, or not?

Accident.

Also negligent.

 

[Andy_R]

Accident.

Also negligent.

No accident. Negligence on the part of the person that left it in an unsafe state.

 

[Alex321]

Anything which is described as an 'accident' when firearms are involved will almost always be the consequence of a negligent action (or inaction) on someone's part. I don't have any statistics, but I'm thinking that inaction is probably the greater problem. Vanishingly-few 'accidents' with firearms are purely accidental;, though.

Vanishingly few accidents of any type are purely accidental. Almost all involve some sort of human error or negligence.

You do get occasional ones which don't, such a s tree falling on a car during a storm, but they are really very rare.

But the fact that the root cause is human error does not mean they aren't also accidents.

If people prefer to call them "incidents" or just describe them as negligent, that is absolutely fine. But it is wrong to go beyond that and say they are not accidents.

 

[Alex321]

No accident.

Incorrect

Look up the definition of accident.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/accident

Negligence on the part of the person that left it in an unsafe state.

Correct.

 

[neil_merseyside]

Oh come on there can't be a cyclist on the planet who believes in accidents! Negligence at best! An unfortunate outcome of something you didn't intend to happen you might try to call an accident in front of the judge - but it is just you trying to mitigate (and tbf it works for motons!!).
In regard to the post up there ^^^^
How can dropping an unloaded gun kill anyone? Oh hang on it wasn't meant to be loaded then? oh and you didn't mean to drop it?
Yeah that's an accident - but in your head only...

 

[MichaelW2]

Anything which is described as an 'accident' when firearms are involved will almost always be the consequence of a negligent action (or inaction) on someone's part. I don't have any statistics, but I'm thinking that inaction is probably the greater problem. Vanishingly-few 'accidents' with firearms are purely accidental;, though.

There have been accidental discharges caused by faulty design, manufacturing or wear or some ammunition faults. Some have been caught on camera. Not the shooters fault and if the shooter is handling safely, an AD results in no injury .
Negligent discharge is finger on trigger, pressed when it shouldnt be. Operator error.

 

[MichaelW2]

Let's just say someone drops a pistol, and it discharges a round that hits and kills someone. Accident, or not?

Modern firearms are designed to be drop safe. The civillian version of the new US service pistol could go off when dropped. One famous video shows FBI agent stylin it on the dancefloor. Gun drops out of holster and bounces on floor. Perfectly safe accident. Agent then grabs and fumbles gun and hits trigger. Gun goes bang. V unsafe negligent discharge

 

[KnittyNorah]

There have been accidental discharges caused by faulty design, manufacturing or wear or some ammunition faults. Some have been caught on camera. Not the shooters fault and if the shooter is handling safely, an AD results in no injury .
Negligent discharge is finger on trigger, pressed when it shouldnt be. Operator error.

Yes - negligence on the part of the manufacturer/designer/seller/etc of said gun, ammo etc caused what happened.

 

[Bromptonaut]

You should never point any firing device at any person unless you mean to shoot them. The universally recognised gun safety rules are frequently ignored, often with tragic consequences.

I worked for a time in an office dealing with Executorships. It was not that unusual for case officers going out to the deceased's property to find firearms; anything from licensed rifles or handguns through WW1 Lee Enfields to Very pistols from WW2.

In those days 30+ years ago part of my job was to take 'valuables' etc and log them into the strong room.

Nobody formally told me about rules with firearms. A colleague who had been in the Cadet Corps at school, while lodging firearms himself, gave me some basic schooling along the lines of mind where you're pointing that thing.

It's quite possible that staff ignorant of the rules etc could have indulged in horseplay with the consequence of an accidental discharge.

The law now is much more prescriptive - firearms falling into the hands of executors take a one way ticket to the police station.

 

[Alex321]

Oh come on there can't be a cyclist on the planet who believes in accidents!

Any cyclist who actually knows the meaning of the word "believes" in them. I certainly do=.

Negligence at best! An unfortunate outcome of something you didn't intend to happen you might try to call an accident in front of the judge

Given that is the correct English definition of the word, of course you would.

That of course should not (and with any reasonable judge would not) absolve you of blame.

- but it is just you trying to mitigate (and tbf it works for motons!!).
In regard to the post up there ^^^^
How can dropping an unloaded gun kill anyone? Oh hang on it wasn't meant to be loaded then? oh and you didn't mean to drop it?
Yeah that's an accident - but in your head only...

And in the correct English usage of the word.

You appear to be under the erroneous impression that "accident" means "nobody's fault". It most certainly does not mean that at all.

 

[neil_merseyside]

You appear to be under the erroneous impression that "accident" means "nobody's fault". It most certainly does not mean that at all.

Yeah but it is used to smokescreen hideous injustice.
Are you a barrister? I suppose 'My client had an accident' instead of 'he took a chance with someone else's life' might make the job easier.
Are you are motorist sleeper agent and just blown cover?

 

[Bromptonaut]

Yeah but it is used to smokescreen hideous injustice.
Are you a barrister? I suppose 'My client had an accident' instead of 'he took a chance with someone else's life' might make the job easier.
Are you are motorist sleeper agent and just blown cover?

Where does the boundary fall?

Being a bit devil's advocate here but:

1. I'm driving along a road at a speed under the limit and appropriate to the conditions and go sideways on a near invisible spill of oil injuring a cyclist
2. I'm driving along a road at a speed under the limit and appropriate to the conditions and go sideways on black ice in a frost pocket injuring a cyclist
3. I'm driving along a road at a speed under the limit and appropriate to the conditions and go sideways on black ice after defrosting my car and being alerted to icing conditions by the car's warning system injuring a cyclist
4. I'm driving a bit over the limit after a skin full last night and go sideways on an oil spill or black ice etc.

Where is the line?

 

[Alex321]

Yeah but it is used to smokescreen hideous injustice.
Are you a barrister? I suppose 'My client had an accident' instead of 'he took a chance with someone else's life' might make the job easier.
Are you are motorist sleeper agent and just blown cover?

Nah, I'm just a bit of a pedant.

I absolutely prefer that we call these things negligence or similar.

I just object to people wrongly saying it wasn't an accident.

Where does the boundary fall?

Being a bit devil's advocate here but:

1. I'm driving along a road at a speed under the limit and appropriate to the conditions and go sideways on a near invisible spill of oil injuring a cyclist
2. I'm driving along a road at a speed under the limit and appropriate to the conditions and go sideways on black ice in a frost pocket injuring a cyclist
3. I'm driving along a road at a speed under the limit and appropriate to the conditions and go sideways on black ice after defrosting my car and being alerted to icing conditions by the car's warning system injuring a cyclist
4. I'm driving a bit over the limit after a skin full last night and go sideways on an oil spill or black ice etc.

Where is the line?

There really isn't a "boundary" in terms of what is an accident.

Any unintended or unexpected consequence of an action is an accident, according to the dictionary definition of the word. Usually, but not necessarily applied to negative consequences. But things like the discovery of penicillin have been happy accidents.

 

[steveindenmark]

You would think that if they were doing a close range shot that they would do it remotely. The idea of someone standing in front of the barrel of a gun, loaded or unloaded, is just inconceivable to me. Whoever was in charge of the gun safety on set will be out of a job. There is no excuse for this as it is so simple to avoid. In fact if you know what you are doing, it is difficult to get wrong.

 

[steveindenmark]

Where does the boundary fall?

Being a bit devil's advocate here but:

1. I'm driving along a road at a speed under the limit and appropriate to the conditions and go sideways on a near invisible spill of oil injuring a cyclist
2. I'm driving along a road at a speed under the limit and appropriate to the conditions and go sideways on black ice in a frost pocket injuring a cyclist
3. I'm driving along a road at a speed under the limit and appropriate to the conditions and go sideways on black ice after defrosting my car and being alerted to icing conditions by the car's warning system injuring a cyclist
4. I'm driving a bit over the limit after a skin full last night and go sideways on an oil spill or black ice etc.

Where is the line?

To bring it more into context. If you leave the car Keys on the table and sit and watch TV. Nothing will happen. Same with a gun. Leave it on the table and nothing will happen. Gun handling protocol takes out the outside variables such as your black ice and oil. But in typical American fashion they manage to totally cock it up again. Someone in charge of this weapon was negligent in some way. I do not necessarily mean the person who had hold of it. There should have been someone with firearms experience controlling them when they had hold of the gun.