Calling forum gun experts. How does a dummy firearm kill?

[winjim]

Minor point but the actor can;t always be given the gun directly - and might not even have sight of it before he/she gets hold of it
Imagine a scene where actor A comes in - actor B pulls out a hidden gun and shoots at actor A who falls but grabs the gun and shoots B
at which point actor c (the Hero) bursts through the door wrestles the gun from whoever and shoots the baddy

Now - at the start only ACtor A has the gun - and no-one can see it
Actor C has no sight of the gun and it is not in his control until he.she picks it up and immediatly pulls the trigger - at which point 2 other people have had control of it out of his sight

So they cannot do a safety check before pulling the trigger.

The solution is for all 3 to see the armourer check the weapon
after which the armourer is always positioned to see the gun - or have total sight of its position when it is hidden

and, of course, no live rounds allowed on set at any time and all weapons used in the film are kept secure and not used for entertainment at other times

not excessively difficult - but the American attitude to guns is way too casual - they probably treat their socks with more care than the guns - they seem to just consider them the same as toys at times

How many shots are edited together to make that scene? How many of those shots require close up or enough detail that a prop gun would not suffice? In how many of those shots is the gun actually fired?

 

[Arrowfoot]

I am sure the Actors Guild, Studios and the various people in the trade will learn from this and introduce a new control. Mainly to protect themselves and their assets.

My guess is studios will have a full time gun safety officer who does not double hat as an asst director, or any other roles. The armourer has too many custody, logistics and ammo preparation duties The gun safety person will undergo some sort of training where they learn to identify ammo such as blanks, dummy rounds, live ammo, wadding in the barrel and obstruction in the barrel and the only one to designated and allowed to shout commands like "cold". Probably a certification course.

Its a small investment and there is clear accountability. There is no such control that exist despite all the so called experts from twitter to press interviews claiming so. Imagine relying on an asst director to assure gun safety.

 

[dodgy]

So no need to improve gun safety? What happens when people fail with the supposed adequate controls?

Nothing wrong with improving safety, I expect that advice to come from the Armourer's control organisation and not some cyclist's forum.

 

[Arrowfoot]

Nothing wrong with improving safety, I expect that advice to come from the Armourer's control organisation and not some cyclist's forum.

It is not too hard for any reasonable person to offer workable suggestions. Might not be complete but an improvement.
Its no different to our MPs in Parliament who pass laws on things that they are not trained in but have the intelligence to assist in one form or another. We all do it in our everyday life in our own small way. Just my view below.

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/c...does-a-dummy-firearm-kill.280689/post-6572396

 

[Profpointy]

So no need to improve gun safety? What happens when people fail with the supposed adequate controls?

If the controls are adequate, as indeed they may be in themselves, but people are ignoring them, then introducing more isn't going to help. We see that in quite a lot of spheres where people ignore the rules, the reaction is to introduce more rules, which inconvenience those already being sensible and are ignored by those already breaking the old rules. In industry it isn't unheard for safety rules to make the job much harder to do so people are almost forced to ignore the rule putting the burden of risk onto the employee. Too many rules can drive the whole operation into another country where there are no rules.

It does seem in this incident there was very little following of rules, rather than the rules being deficient.

 

[dodgy]

It is not too hard for any reasonable person to offer workable suggestions. Might not be complete but an improvement.
Its no different to our MPs in Parliament who pass laws on things that they are not trained in but have the intelligence to assist in one form or another. We all do it in our everyday life in our own small way. Just my view below.

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/c...does-a-dummy-firearm-kill.280689/post-6572396

There are already adequate controls (more than adequate according to actual armourers), the problem is the humans became sloppy. Add more controls maybe, but they’ll get ignored unless the movie set is managed more professionally.
Edit: too slow as @Profpointy said it better than I.

 

[cougie uk]

If the controls are adequate, as indeed they may be in themselves, but people are ignoring them, then introducing more isn't going to help. We see that in quite a lot of spheres where people ignore the rules, the reaction is to introduce more rules, which inconvenience those already being sensible and are ignored by those already breaking the old rules. In industry it isn't unheard for safety rules to make the job much harder to do so people are almost forced to ignore the rule putting the burden of risk onto the employee. Too many rules can drive the whole operation into another country where there are no rules.

It does seem in this incident there was very little following of rules, rather than the rules being deficient.

Perhaps sending someone to jail over this will remind people to follow the rules ?

The rules have worked for the last few decades.

 

[dodgy]

Anyone ever worked in a control type job? I bet many of us have, here's an example of unintended consequences that I have actually experienced.

Problem statement: Users are creating easy to guess passwords
Solution:
Preventive control: Configure the system to prevent easy to guess passwords being created by applying a password complexity algorithm, including forcing users to create 14 character passwords.

Outcome: Passwords are now written on post-it notes and taped under keyboards by employees.

🤷‍♂️

Anyway, I reckon @cougie uk is right, a big stick is coming and it's going to send shockwaves in the industry (for a while, until people largely forget it - like the Brandon Lee incident).

 

[DRM]

Anyone ever worked in a control type job? I bet many of us have, here's an example of unintended consequences that I have actually experienced.

Problem statement: Users are creating easy to guess passwords
Solution:
Preventive control: Configure the system to prevent easy to guess passwords being created by applying a password complexity algorithm, including forcing users to create 14 character passwords.

Outcome: Passwords are now written on post-it notes and taped under keyboards by employees.

🤷‍♂️

Anyway, I reckon @cougie uk is right, a big stick is coming and it's going to send shockwaves in the industry (for a while, until people largely forget it - like the Brandon Lee incident).

Similar thing for us on forklifts, some now come with a keypad, the ignition key replaced with a switch, stops untrained people driving it, unfortunately I’ve lost count of the trucks I’ve come across with the ignition PIN written in marker pen on the truck.

 

[dodgy]

Similar thing for us on forklifts, some now come with a keypad, the ignition key replaced with a switch, stops untrained people driving it, unfortunately I’ve lost count of the trucks I’ve come across with the ignition PIN written in marker pen on the truck.

Yup! I've been in information security (until I retired a few months back) for 30+ years, I have been awestruck by the ingenuity of humans to make any task easier, even if that means putting the entire organisation at risk.

 

[Joey Shabadoo]

I have 9 (nine) passwords I'm supposed to remember in order to use the various systems on my work laptop. A mix of 8 and 14 characters, most of them requiring changing every 4-6 weeks.

Yup. I've got them printed on a label beside the keyboard.

 

[cougie uk]

I have 9 (nine) passwords I'm supposed to remember in order to use the various systems on my work laptop. A mix of 8 and 14 characters, most of them requiring changing every 4-6 weeks.

Yup. I've got them printed on a label beside the keyboard.

It's holidays that used to get me. I couldn't remember passwords after a fortnight off.

 

[Joey Shabadoo]

It's holidays that used to get me. I couldn't remember passwords after a fortnight off.

Aye I do that. In a similar vein, while I was furloughed I rarely used the car. On the day I went back to work, I got in the car and just stared at the dashboard for a few seconds trying to remember how to start it. I'd forgotten it was keyless.

 

[winjim]

Regarding passwords, fortunately I work in a field which has a great many systematic conventions of nomenclature, sets of compounds and structures etc so I'm not short of inspiration to draw on.

 

[Beebo]

If we’re moaning about passwords. My company iPhone needs an eight digit entry code every time the screen locks and the code changes every 30 days.
What a PITA.