"Brompton profits plunge more than 99% amid bike industry turmoil"

[FrankCrank]

I'm getting a definite sense of deja-vufrom reading this thread.
When I left school in 1977, the once great British motorcycle industry was in complete tatters.
An example would be the engineering college I was at full time for the first year. Most of the lads had things like FS1E's, AP50's etc, plus various 250's, again all from Japan. Not one British bike to be seen out in the carpark.

Go back another 10 years, and the management at the British bike factories were blinkered to what was about to happen, total denial that the industry was under any threat from the far east.

When I got my first bike, a Honda CD175, I was so proud to have my own transport at last, and go for rides with my mates. Shortly after getting my new bike, I was parking it at work, and the foreman there parked next to me on his Velocette. He looked across and said something like 'how can you ride that piece of crap', followed by something I can't repeat here as it was racist in the extreme. How blinkered and spiteful he was.

I do hope Brompton can avoid anything terminal. I also hope they can see China or Taiwan not as a threat, but embrace what these countries have to offer. Brompton in partnership with these cheaper manufacturing centres could provide affordable commuter bikes for the masses, not just those with deep pockets.

 

[MidnightRider]

Need to shop from Spa Cycles - Despite some customers' disappointment with a 'blunt Yorkshireman' they are a retailer with integrity.

I have used them and found them prompt and excellent for mail order sundries, nothing negative at all in the transactions. Wrong end of the country for me to try out bikes, SJS would be closer for tourers etc as a viable distance (they too have been good for mail order). Very happy to recommend both companies.

I hasten to add that I'm not trying to start an argument or disagree with your words.........

I have not logged on her for a few (?) days, lost track of time a bit. No problem or offence with anything you have said, I like to hear others view points as often they can be right!

What are your views on how we all funded the banking sector when they made poor decisions in 2008?

Well to be fair, I dont know much about financial/city stuff and I don't remember much about the event. I do remember that lots of normal people saw banking riding for a big fall, other than politicians and... bankers.

Its tricky I guess as is it fair for normal mortgage/account holding people in the street to be impacted by directors/chairpeople they have no influence at all over - probabally not. I think there are also some form of legal financial guarantees in place to protect the general account holders, but I don't recall how much that applied.

Overall I can see letting banks fail could trigger much greater disasters, but I would (if I ruled the world) be looking at nationalising in such circumstances but making it a permanent position with all future profits going back into the treasury and all the irrisponsible or out of touch staff at the top loosing thier jobs. If at all viable I would have liked to have seen a nationalised bank set up to help normal people, rather than focus still on private profit, then being sold off later to rich mates. The public took all the risk and did all the repairs, only to have taken away what they had salvaged and would have finally start to gain from.
I miss the true original purpose of building societies before they became money grabbing banks too.

Neice's Husband (who works for a bank) was very put out that he didn't get a huge bonus that Christmas

And I rest my case about sacking the out of touch.

 

[ianrauk]

Looks like the Ashhford factory is going to be given the green light from the local council.
Wether they can afford to build it at the moment is another matter.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/ashfor...-for-green-light-despite-company-prof-318364/

 

[Jameshow]

I'm getting a definite sense of deja-vufrom reading this thread.
When I left school in 1977, the once great British motorcycle industry was in complete tatters.
An example would be the engineering college I was at full time for the first year. Most of the lads had things like FS1E's, AP50's etc, plus various 250's, again all from Japan. Not one British bike to be seen out in the carpark.

Go back another 10 years, and the management at the British bike factories were blinkered to what was about to happen, total denial that the industry was under any threat from the far east.

When I got my first bike, a Honda CD175, I was so proud to have my own transport at last, and go for rides with my mates. Shortly after getting my new bike, I was parking it at work, and the foreman there parked next to me on his Velocette. He looked across and said something like 'how can you ride that piece of crap', followed by something I can't repeat here as it was racist in the extreme. How blinkered and spiteful he was.

I do hope Brompton can avoid anything terminal. I also hope they can see China or Taiwan not as a threat, but embrace what these countries have to offer. Brompton in partnership with these cheaper manufacturing centres could provide affordable commuter bikes for the masses, not just those with deep pockets.

If Brompton go down the route of Chinese manufacturing or cheapening of their products, I think they are sunk, the USP will be gone.
Like Barbour or Rolls Royce etc....

 

[FrankCrank]

If Brompton go down the route of Chinese manufacturing or cheapening of their products, I think they are sunk, the USP will be gone.
Like Barbour or Rolls Royce etc....

Do you see Apple products as being 'cheap', or pretty much any laptop, mobile, tablet - most made in China it seems.

Brompton I believe had a brief foray into production in that part of the world, with negative results.

Could this have been due to a lack of control on the part of Brommie management, ie, did they take their eye off the ball in terms of QA, and just let the third party have full control?

 

[wafter]

I'm getting a definite sense of deja-vufrom reading this thread.
When I left school in 1977, the once great British motorcycle industry was in complete tatters.
An example would be the engineering college I was at full time for the first year. Most of the lads had things like FS1E's, AP50's etc, plus various 250's, again all from Japan. Not one British bike to be seen out in the carpark.

Go back another 10 years, and the management at the British bike factories were blinkered to what was about to happen, total denial that the industry was under any threat from the far east.

When I got my first bike, a Honda CD175, I was so proud to have my own transport at last, and go for rides with my mates. Shortly after getting my new bike, I was parking it at work, and the foreman there parked next to me on his Velocette. He looked across and said something like 'how can you ride that piece of crap', followed by something I can't repeat here as it was racist in the extreme. How blinkered and spiteful he was.

I do hope Brompton can avoid anything terminal. I also hope they can see China or Taiwan not as a threat, but embrace what these countries have to offer. Brompton in partnership with these cheaper manufacturing centres could provide affordable commuter bikes for the masses, not just those with deep pockets.

I very much agree with the first three paragraphs about the decline of British engineering and some of the nasty, greedy, arrogant attitudes that underpinned it. However I'd have to raise issue with a bit of the last sentence.

China absolutely are a threat - both economically and ideologically. It seems the west has walked an increasingly precarious tightrope regarding China; turning a blind eye to its human rights abuses, disregard for the environment, geopolitcal aspirations and fundamentally incompatable ideological standpoint in return for cheap, often low-quality manufactured goods to line the pockets of spiv middle-men, prop up an unproductive and unsustainable consumption-led economy and keep the masses placated with disposible tat and delusions of prosperity while the political elite asset-strip the country.

It seems this relationship is becoming increasingly untenable as the unsustainable global economy grinds to a halt, facades of civility fall away, the gloves come off and increasingly incompatable agendas become more obvious.

While Taiwan has long-been a manufacturing hub for all-things bicycle the fact that it's essentially controlled by China makes it subject to all of the potential issues of dealing with China itself; which is a shame.

I'd suggest this presents a significant contrast to the rise of foreign competitors that collectively hammered shut the coffin lid of British manufacturing in the '70s and '80s; since neither Japan or Germany presented comparable threats beyond the economic context to that China does now.

While Brompton make much fanfare about being "made in Britain" (which sadly, to be fair is quite a rarity now in any legitimate sense) I think this is restricted to the frame and maybe a few of the other large parts such as the stem and seatpost. I suspect all the rest (finishing kit, wheels etc) will be bought in from non-domestic suppliers - probably in Taiwan. I did read a while ago that Brompton were looking to diversify their foreign suppliers away from the Chinese sphere of influence precisely because of the political uncertainty surrounding them.

Unfortunately over the past 50yrs the UK has transformed from a self-sustaining producer to a consumer that creates very little of tangible, practical value and increasingly relies on external suppliers for staples that we should be providing ourselves.

While we do still have a few "British" brands often they're just a sham marketing exercise - trusted once-British names owned by foreign concerns or vulture capitalists, predominently foreign-made products being cynically pedalled as "British made" for marketing cache.. Sadly in the face of cheap foreign competition the only target markets that truly British brands can sustain themselves within are the niche, arguably-poor-value sectors that are often beyond the pockets of the average citizen other than those who are prepared to spend a disproportionate amount of their average wage on an item because of a particular affiinity for it.

Brompton are a good case in point - those in need of a folding bike have myriad choices from £200 upwards; with Decathlon's 16", apparent-Brompton-competitor offering a better spec in some regards (integrated lights, 9sp) for half the price of a C-Line explore.

Of course this isn't necessarily a criticism of Brompton in isolation as much as a reflection of the pitiful state of the British economy, and to be honest I think they've done fairly well to have lasted this long as a genuinely British entity while pretty much every other element of British manufacturing is long dead.

With decades of globalised growth apparently coming to an end thanks to political tensions, debt-fuelled over-expansion, rising interest rates and other factors it seems that a return towards how things once were is necessary / inevitable... Something that idealogically, morally and environmentally IMO is a good thing; however this is going to be a bitter pill to swallow for the generations that have grown up knowing nothing other than being able to buy whatever they want for a cost that in no way reflects its true intrinsic value..

 

[Fastpedaller]

Wise words Wafter. Sadly it would seem components can't even be sourced from European countries like they were up until the late 70's?
All the talk of Brompton being in difficulty (someone has added a YouTube today stating they are on the bankruptcy slope) is IMHO a load of nonsense - their profits have probably financed the plans of the new Ashford factory amongst other investments. Breaking even doesn't suggest there is a problem without having a lot more knowledge of the figures, which is probably only known by a few in Brompton.
I'd suggest anyone who agrees with my thoughts doesn't look at the YouTube clip, otherwise it 'adds fuel to the fire'

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Do you see Apple products as being 'cheap', or pretty much any laptop, mobile, tablet - most made in China it seems.

Brompton I believe had a brief foray into production in that part of the world, with negative results.

Could this have been due to a lack of control on the part of Brommie management, ie, did they take their eye off the ball in terms of QA, and just let the third party have full control?

I read an article about "Made in China" and is quoted people from Apple and the like

The opinion of the article was that places in CHina are perfectly capable to working to high standards if you specify them

but it is also easy to find places that will produce stuff far cheaper if you compromise on the quality
and in some case - don;t force a strict and independent checking regime

 

[wafter]

Wise words Wafter. Sadly it would seem components can't even be sourced from European countries like they were up until the late 70's?
All the talk of Brompton being in difficulty (someone has added a YouTube today stating they are on the bankruptcy slope) is IMHO a load of nonsense - their profits have probably financed the plans of the new Ashford factory amongst other investments. Breaking even doesn't suggest there is a problem without having a lot more knowledge of the figures, which is probably only known by a few in Brompton.
I'd suggest anyone who agrees with my thoughts doesn't look at the YouTube clip, otherwise it 'adds fuel to the fire'

Thanks - just calling it as it appears to be!

I think you're largely right about the components - the mass-destruction of domestic production in preference for off-shoring isn't isolated to the UK, although think it's amongst the worst here.

Moving away from the Asian powerhouse of Shimano (Japenese of course but I think the better stuff is made in Taiwan, the cheaper stuff in China) you do have Campag in Italy (although I think they're really struggling), while France seems to be over-represented for aftermarket chainrings (Specialities TA and Stronglight) and other drivetrain components. Granted they're pretty small players however and I'm not sure where I'd go for other components in the EU.

Moving away from the obviously negative effect of falling demand on jobs and short-term economic factors I think there are many advantages to reduced consumption and it seems that in the past few decades marketing has really taken over to drive "progress" (or change for the sake of it) far more than in comparable years in say the middle of the last century. Again, I don't necessarily see the slowing of this as a bad thing given how quickly things become obsolete, or the ridiculous range of incompatable standards it's given rise to..

That's a shame about the bankruptcy speculation, but par for the course I guess and broad-strokes this wouldn't be without precedent given some of the large scalps the collapse of the cycling industry has already claimed in the past few years. I'm sure it's a possibility; equally it seems that companies can go on for years or decades making a loss if investers are happy to keep chucking funds in (although granted this is probably less likely in the current economic climate).

I guess time will tell...

 

[Fastpedaller]

Brompton have broken even, that's no problem. Looking at a lot of households in the UK, many (most?) would say they have broken even in the last year (i.e. not increased their savings), but wouldn't be declaring bankruptcy . As I suggested, we would need to look into fine detail of the accounts before making any sweeping statements. I consider it unfortunate and poor reporting for the press to be reporting 'Brompton profits crash' and other similar headlines, but that seems to be the way with media these days ......'Shock horror headlines' and'clickbait' is the order of the day and real journalism has been bypassed.

 

[brommieinkorea]

Do you see Apple products as being 'cheap', or pretty much any laptop, mobile, tablet - most made in China it seems.

Brompton I believe had a brief foray into production in that part of the world, with negative results.

Could this have been due to a lack of control on the part of Brommie management, ie, did they take their eye off the ball in terms of QA, and just let the third party have full control?

If my cell phone fails, I go to Walmart and buy a new one. If my Chinese made bike frame fails , I could end up in the hospital with a subsequent $100000 medical bill. Chinese metallurgical quality control is nearly non-existant. Apples to Oranges....

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

If my cell phone fails, I go to Walmart and buy a new one. If my Chinese made bike frame fails , I could end up in the hospital with a subsequent $100000 medical bill. Chinese metallurgical quality control is nearly non-existant. Apples to Oranges....

The Chinese are perfectly capable of good meta work - they can make a perfectly good bike, car or whatever

problem is that if the client specifies cheap crap - or specifies reasonable stuff and never checks on it - then there are factories in China that are perfectly happy to produce cheap crap and the government isn;t bothered if it only affects foreigners
(possibly - not sure about that last bit but it seems that way at time!)

Try to manufacture the same carp in the UK for export to Germany and you will get into trouble

 

[FrankCrank]

If my cell phone fails, I go to Walmart and buy a new one. If my Chinese made bike frame fails , I could end up in the hospital with a subsequent $100000 medical bill. Chinese metallurgical quality control is nearly non-existant. Apples to Oranges....

You appear to have an abundance of knowledge of Chinese manufacturing, and quality control procedures.
How have you come to the conclusion that 'Chinese metallurgical quality control is nearly non existant' ?

 

[brommieinkorea]

You appear to have an abundance of knowledge of Chinese manufacturing, and quality control procedures.
How have you come to the conclusion that 'Chinese metallurgical quality control is nearly non existant' ?

Experience with Chinese stuff, made of metal. More to the point is that Bromptons break when they are old, but since the design has remained so similar to the original, no one can tell. I'd rather not go into the other even more significant reason why becoming super dependant on cheap Chinese labor is a bad long term plan- very political it is.