Brompton clones

[FrankCrank]

I'll try and give a perspective from SE Asia, being as I live in Thailand mainly, and like bikes and stuff.
I'll start by making a sweeping statement, that Asians in general are given to ostentation - they like to flaunt how well off they are.
A good way to do this is to ride an expensive bike, clad head to toe in garish coloured Lycra. Like I said, they love to show off.
Now then, in Thailand, a propper Brommie starts at nearly a grand and a half, what with import duties:
https://tinywheelsth.com/collections/brompton

As a result, not many of the locals can afford this, but all is not lost. Big Brother, by courtesy of Aliexpress, can provide a looky-likey at less than one third the price:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002008032311.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.4b916746PbtVjq&algo_pvid=a58d6e79-6f93-42b7-a0d3-90c00e5c8750&algo_exp_id=a58d6e79-6f93-42b7-a0d3-90c00e5c8750-0&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"12000018392085361"}

This gives you the opportunity to impress, at a fraction of the price, and all will be amazed as you whizz past blinged to the hilt.

As we know, clones lack pedigree and after sales support etc, none of which matter to those eager to impress their peers. Can only see more and more doppelgangers enter the scene, just a case of supply and demand really

 

[tinywheels]

I'll try and give a perspective from SE Asia, being as I live in Thailand mainly, and like bikes and stuff.
I'll start by making a sweeping statement, that Asians in general are given to ostentation - they like to flaunt how well off they are.
A good way to do this is to ride an expensive bike, clad head to toe in garish coloured Lycra. Like I said, they love to show off.
Now then, in Thailand, a propper Brommie starts at nearly a grand and a half, what with import duties:
https://tinywheelsth.com/collections/brompton

As a result, not many of the locals can afford this, but all is not lost. Big Brother, by courtesy of Aliexpress, can provide a looky-likey at less than one third the price:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002008032311.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.4b916746PbtVjq&algo_pvid=a58d6e79-6f93-42b7-a0d3-90c00e5c8750&algo_exp_id=a58d6e79-6f93-42b7-a0d3-90c00e5c8750-0&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"12000018392085361"}

This gives you the opportunity to impress, at a fraction of the price, and all will be amazed as you whizz past blinged to the hilt.

As we know, clones lack pedigree and after sales support etc, none of which matter to those eager to impress their peers. Can only see more and more doppelgangers enter the scene, just a case of supply and demand really

each to their own

 

[berlinonaut]

Would a far-eastern brand be designed for a fat western bloke like me. Even Dahons are only rated to a maximum rider + luggage weight of 95kg. i only found this out after mine snapped - it was never pointed out to me during the buying phase at Evans.

The Chedech is rated to 100kg max. and the standard seatpost is 500mm, the longer version 550mm according to their technical data. That's 5cm less than the Brompton extended post, let alone the telescopic one. So not really a good fit for taller people (which counts for the stem, too).

I had a long chat with a guy in the Brompton Junction before taking the plunge and he told me that they're rated to 130kg - and that's to do with the brakes being able to stop you, rather than the strength of the frame.

I remember the 130kg (or even 140kg?) as well - however, they have lowered the limit: Today Brompton communicate 110kg max for a couple of years. In practice way more has proven to be not a problem (which would make sense with the statement you got about the brakes, not the frame being the limitation).

 

[yoho oy]

Well, if anyone is willing to take a plunge and buy one of these clones and later on do a proper long term review and comparison with a real thing here are the clone list (some of them just frames/parts rather than a whole bike):

1 Mobot camp royale
2 Pikes
3 Paikesi
4 3Sixty
5 Litepro
6 Week eight
7 Motachie or Motach E
8 AceofFix (ACE 01)
9 Chedech (carbon fiber clone)
10 Billiton (aluminium frame clone)

Some of them could be made in the same factory, and assembled with different components and different badges.

 

[FrankCrank]

Watched a video where a chap was replacing the bushings on the rear triangle. The special reaming tool alone cost 200 quid. I'm sure I heard somewhere that only certain Brommie dealers were allowed to carry out this procedure. Typically, my clunkers have low running costs over say, several years of ownership. Just run of the mill parts and my own labour. I'm wondering what the running cost are likely to be for a Brommie, again over several years of ownership. If a long term review of the clones, as suggested above, were possible, it would be nice to compare all the costs, and not just the purchase price. Asking the impossible I know, but just a thought.

PS - another one for the list - LA Neo Stage, LA being a Thai brand.

 

[berlinonaut]

Watched a video where a chap was replacing the bushings on the rear triangle. The special reaming tool alone cost 200 quid. I'm sure I heard somewhere that only certain Brommie dealers were allowed to carry out this procedure.

First, regarding the tools: There are basically four special tools available for Brompton maintenance. None of those is needed, all of them make the work easier, more reliable and quicker.

1. The reamer for rear triangle bushings: The kit costs 160€ (enduser price) - nowhere near GBP 200 quid. You could use any other suitable reamer but you will need something "reamerish" when changing the bushes. At least if you want them to last.

2. The reamer for the seat post sleeve. The kit costs 167€ end user price and while you can mc-gyver the process w/o this tool fitting a new sleve is waaaaaaay easier and better to perform using that tool and the outcome will clearly be lightyears better.

3. The hinge pin press. It is specially constructed by Brompton and costs 145€. You can do the work w/o it but it makes life much easier. In a workshop time is money and reliability of the process is worth money.

4. The reamer for the hinge pins. Available in various sizes, 33€ each. Only needed if the hinge pin is eol and you need the next size - then you need to ream the hinge accordingly. Very rarely needed - and I heavily doubt that any other brand like i.e. Dahon is offering over-size hinge-pins at all.

So if you buy the whole lot you end up at like 600€ for all special tools that may ever be needed on a Brompton. End user prices and including VAT. Obviously way cheaper for a company as you''ll pay a lower price than a enduser beforehand, get back the VAT (~20%) from that lower price and the remaining cost will even lower the taxable income of the company. Not too for much a professional commercial workshop if you ask me. It is an investment as any other tool is. What do you think special professional tools for other bikes (including diagnostic software and hardware for electric bikes) or generic professional bike tools cost?
Possibly the price for the Brompton tools is too much for a private person - simply not worth it. But they are not the target audience anyway, as with any professional tools. Even many dealers do not have the tools and many do lack the knowledge as well how to perform changes like the rear bushings or even the seat post sleeve properly. In many cases they don't take the order (especially with the rear hinge) or ship the bike to someone competent or (the worst case) the result will speak for itself (in a negative way). If I was to buy one tool it would be the seat post sleeve kit. As I've done the change with and w/o the kit I know what a difference it makes. Same goes for the other tools - just that as I private person I do not need them regularly whereas with the sleeve tool after three changes you've already saved money in comparison to let a workshop perform the task. If you own more than one Brompton and/or ride and fold a lot it may be worth it. If you let a workshop perform the task I'd let them show the tool to you beforehand as a proof that they know what they are doing... Worth noting that a fool with a tool is still a fool - owning the tools is one thing, using them properly is another.
If you are too greedy to buy the tools and to greedy to let the professional workshops buy the tools or too greedy to let the work perform by a professional workshop you'll pay a price. Either in terms of time or quality or both.

Typically, my clunkers have low running costs over say, several years of ownership. Just run of the mill parts and my own labour. I'm wondering what the running cost are likely to be for a Brommi, again over several years of ownership.

I've done this calculation with a M6RD several years ago and the result was 4,17€/month over a period of 10 years. This included initial price for the bike, the loss in value and a virtual resale price after 10 years, the parts and the maintenance (simple things like chain and tire change done self, complicated things like sleeve and bushings done by a workshop) and it was conservatively calculated regarding the resale value. This was done based on my experiences in terms of cost and maintenance of a decade riding a Brompton throughout the year. Which means here in Berlin if you save two single tickets for public transport in the inner city per month by using the Brompton instead it has already payed for itself. In the meantime prices have gone up a fair bit but so has resale value. So it should be more or less similar today. I don't remember exactly how many kms per year I assumed for the calculation back then - it was somewhere between 2000 and 5000.
No, a Brompton is not expensive - it is indeed a very cheap mode of transport. If you avoid diving into the tuning hobby at least..

 

[yoho oy]

I think the draw to brompton is for the relatively light weight and functional folding. There are plenty of folders, at different prices, but most of them weight much more. There are many folding bikes, but most of them fold in awkward shapes and are hard to handle. Brompton nailed with their folding - can be easily moved, pushed, used as shopping cart, etc. Speaking about price... Brompton is not cheap. I can see similar ideas of price justification from one cult like electronic gadget company with fruit logo. They say- "oh, our devices cost just £2000 (or whatever the latest model is), but it can last 5 years. Sure, but fan loyalists buy a new phone every year. I could buy like 10 of them for the same price from different company and have at least 80% functionality and change them every few months. Glad I got out of that cult and never looked back.

My father had a bike that lasted very very long time. I am not sure might be he still has it. We are talking about at least 20 year with ALL ORIGINAL PARTS. Try beating that! Well a few catches are these- the bike was not used on daily basis, and it was always kept indoors in a garage or other area out of elements. I am not sure about inner tubes, but even tyres were the same since the day he bought the bike. It was very simple bike- one speed, foot brake. Bike was heavy, all metal parts and steel frame.

 

[yoho oy]

Speaking about bushings:
https://brompton.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010560298-Rear-Hinge-Servicing

How often will this need doing?

The time in which these bushings wear out varies enormously dependent on the amount of use, style of riding, rider weight/power output, number of folds, general cleanliness of the bike, etc.


For comparison: our resident test technician rides approximately 30 miles a day, 3 days a week on his Brompton and requires a rear hinge replacement service around every 4 months.

This comes from official Brompton website.
Brompton Rear hinge bush and spindle kit, excluding reamer costs about £22.5? So even if it is done by the bike owner with just part cost, we come to £67.5 per year? The job itself by experienced technician cost £40? Are we talking about £190 per year then?
On other hand I found some owners who say that they did the replacement only after years of owning the bike.

 

[FrankCrank]

First, regarding the tools: There are basically four special tools available for Brompton maintenance. None of those is needed, all of them make the work easier, more reliable and quicker.

1. The reamer for rear triangle bushings: The kit costs 160€ (enduser price) - nowhere near GBP 200 quid. You could use any other suitable reamer but you will need something "reamerish" when changing the bushes. At least if you want them to last.
View attachment 611964

2. The reamer for the seat post sleeve. The kit costs 167€ end user price and while you can mc-gyver the process w/o this tool fitting a new sleve is waaaaaaay easier and better to perform using that tool and the outcome will clearly be lightyears better.

View attachment 611965

3. The hinge pin press. It is specially constructed by Brompton and costs 145€. You can do the work w/o it but it makes life much easier. In a workshop time is money and reliability of the process is worth money.

View attachment 611966

4. The reamer for the hinge pins. Available in various sizes, 33€ each. Only needed if the hinge pin is eol and you need the next size - then you need to ream the hinge accordingly. Very rarely needed - and I heavily doubt that any other brand like i.e. Dahon is offering over-size hinge-pins at all.
View attachment 611967

So if you buy the whole lot you end up at like 600€ for all special tools that may ever be needed on a Brompton. Not too for much a professional. commercial workshop if you ask me. What do you think special tools for other bikes (including diagnostic software and hardware for electric bikes) cost?
Possibly too much for a private person - simply not worth it. Even many dealers do not have the tools and many do lack the knowledge as well how to perform changes like the rear bushings or even the seat post sleeve properly. In many cases they don't take the order (especially with the rear hinge) or ship the bike to someone competent or (the worst case) the result will speak for itself (in a negative way). If I was to buy one tool it would be the seat post sleeve kit. As I've done the change with and w/o the kit I know what a difference it makes. Same goes for the other tools - just that as I private person I do not need them regularly whereas with the sleeve tool after three changes you've already saved money in comparison to let a workshop perform the task. If you own more than one Brompton and/or ride and fold a lot it may be worth it. If you let a workshop perform the task I'd let them show the tool to you beforehand as a proof that they know what they are doing...
If you are too greedy to buy the tools and to greedy to let the professional workshops buy the tools or too greedy to let the work perform by a professional workshop you'll pay a price. Either in terms of time or quality or both.


I've done this calculation with a M6RD several years ago and the result was 4,17€/month over a period of 10 years. This included intial buy price, the loss in value and a virtual resale price after 10 years, the parts and the maintenance (simple things like chain and tire change done self, complicated things like sleeve and bushings done by a workshop) and it was conservatively calculated regarding the resale value. This was done based on my experiences in terms of cost and maintainance of a decade riding a Brompton throughout the year. Which means here in Berlin if you save two single tickets for public transport in the inner city per month by using the Brompton instead it has already payed for itself. In the meantime prices have gone up a fair bit but so has resale value. So it should me more or less similar today. I don't remember exactly how many kms per year I assumed for the calculation back then - it was somewhere between 2000 and 5000.
No, a Brompton is not expensive - it is indeed a very cheap mode of transport. If you avoid diving into the tuning hobby at least..

Was merely sharing some thoughts on a video I'd recently viewed - no need to get on your high horse. Please refer to the title of this forum - CycleChat. Bromptons are bicycles, and I like chatting about bicycles, so what's the issue? You seem to be an authority on Brompton maintenance, perhaps you could upload a suitable video yourself. Just to clarify, it was never my intention to spread 'phantasy facts' as you claim, neither on this occasion or any other.

 

[berlinonaut]

Brompton is not cheap. I can see similar ideas of price justification from one cult like electronic gadget company with fruit logo. They say- "oh, our devices cost just £2000 (or whatever the latest model is), but it can last 5 years. Sure, but fan loyalists buy a new phone every year. I could buy like 10 of them for the same price from different company and have at least 80% functionality and change them every few months. Glad I got out of that cult and never looked back.

The price discussion is pretty useless in my eyes. A Brompton does it's job and if what it does fit your needs get one. If not not. For some it has become a fashion item over the last years but for most it is a tool. A tool that is worth it's price and that has not really an alternative that is as good. Many people spend more on alloy wheels for their car than a Brompton costs an nobody complains about that. In opposite to the Brompton those alloy wheels don't pay for themselves. Most people buy a car that is more expensive than necessary - they could do with a Dacia or Lada but buy a VW, BMW or Merc instead (or even a Jag or Range Rover). Noone questions the price of these. So why do people do that with a Brompton? No one is forced to buy one, the price calculation is even pretty transparent - so get one or leave it. Complaining just makes no sense.

My father had a bike that lasted very very long time. I am not sure might be he still has it. We are talking about at least 20 year with ALL ORIGINAL PARTS. Try beating that! Well a few catches are these- the bike was not used on daily basis, and it was always kept indoors in a garage or other area out of elements. I am not sure about inner tubes, but even tyres were the same since the day he bought the bike. It was very simple bike- one speed, foot brake. Bike was heavy, all metal parts and steel frame.

I do own a Brompton from 1999, all original parts. It has been converted to a Brecki from day one on and did about 4000-5000kms overall. If you don't ride much it is no issue to keep the parts original for many years... There are thousands of Bromptons around that are 20 years old and older and mostly original.

Brompton Rear hinge bush and spindle kit, excluding reamer costs about £22.5? So even if it is done by the bike owner with just part cost, we come to £67.5 per year? The job itself by experienced technician cost £40? Are we talking about £190 per year then?
On other hand I found some owners who say that they did the replacement only after years of owning the bike.

In reality the hinge bushes last between about 3500km (which is the lowest outlayer I ever heard of) to more than 40.000km. If you reach the 20.000km point you should calculate that a change may be needed sooner or later. That's about what I got when asking around a lot of Brompton riders. Myself I did not need to change the bushings on one of my bikes yet despite riding daily. I did however need to change the bushings on a bike that I bought used for a friend that was ridden very intensively for years with little love or maintenance. And another one of my Brommis that I bought used did have them changed with its first owner - the bike was 13 years old when I bought it and had about 30.000km on the clock. One change of the hinge bushes.
Brompton's resident test rider is - as any test rider - expected to destroy and outlast things. Way quicker and more intensive than an ordinary rider would. That is his job - he get's paid for that. There's a single person on the world that needs new bushings every 3 months / 1100 miles - which is clearly an outlayer and told as an amusing anecdote on Brompton's website. It has absolutely nothing to do with the need of a normal rider. How come that you take that outlayer immediately as the regular interval of changing the bushes?
BTW: even your calculation is wrong. There is a kit including the bushings, the axle and a drill and there is a cheaper one that just includes the bushings. After 20.000-40.000 km typically the axle is worn, so you need the more expensive bigger kit. After three months there is no way that the axle would be worn (at least I cannot imagine one), so you would only need to replace the (cheaper) bushings. And I don't want to imagine how harsh that rider must treat his bike to wear the bushings in three months. If I needed to replace the bushings every three months I would clearly see this as a construction failure, no matter what ist costs. Considering the cost involved let this perform in a workshop I probably would not ride a Brompton then (as would probably many others) and clearly either Brompton or a third party would have developed a longer lasting alternative... Do you really believe every Brompton rider changes the rear hinge bushings every three months? W/o anybody talking about it?

 

[Kell]

What I would say wrt to the above conversation is that when you're looking for information, it's often very difficult to find it because so many forums contain anecdotal advice.

I'd much rather have someone (like @berlinonaut) pointing out why these things are wrong - and then we can have a healthy debate about that.

It's great to be able to have a conversation about these topics as something which has become "internet fact", is very often misleading and potentially dangerous. At the least, it could proive excessively costly. As in the quote from the Brompton website above. I've had my bike for 6 years, the bushes have not been replaced - even when I took it in to my local Brompton specialists and asked them to look at them they said it wasn't necessary.

On a normal week (i.e. pre-pandemic) I'd ride around 16 miles a day, 5 days a week. I'm over 100kg and would ride in the worst of London's weather throughout the year. Only if it was snowing, would I not take the Brompton. So I'd say I'm fairly hard on the bike.

On the other hand, I do change my chain, chainring and sprockets every 6 months because I had two chains snap on me. One was on my old Dahon and one was on the Brompton. The first left me with a broken coccyx and the second with a sprained wrist. So while, anecdotally, that has happened to me, I wouldn't say it's common. I wouldn't recommend that other people follow this maintenace routine, but personally I do think it's worth it. For me.

Forums are a great resource. They're even better when you can construct a reasoned and reasonable argument.

 

[yoho oy]

Yup, just don't see why would anyone defend a bike like their dear life depended on it. Brompton makes ok bikes, I am still waiting for mine to arrive - 11 days passed already. I think they will go for max mentioned in their e-mail- 18... That is for non-complicated, stock bike in one of 3 most popular colors that was listed as available in stock on the day I ordered. Plus factory is in the same city... So they have a lot of things to improve, especially when bike is sold at the premium price among folders.

 

[dimrub]

Brompton makes ok bikes

I have to disagree here . Brompton is one of those iconic products, like VW Beetle, or Ford T, or a Singer sewing machine, that through meticulous design and lucky timing define the field that they represent. When talking about a folding bicycle, the comparison to Brompton is inevitable, even if it ends up losing in such a comparison. It seems to be frozen in time, and they took forever to come up with an electric version, even after the market was flooded with 3rd party conversion kits, but the quality, the stability of the design, the elegant form, the few carefully chosen properties optimized to perfection are what caused this to become a cult product, with its fervent following richly represented in this thread . I wish my Brompton was much lighter, I wish it was easier to maintain (fixing a flat is a nightmare!) I wish it had all the bells and whistles of a modern bike, but I'll love it and I'll hold to it nevertheless, even though I haven't really ridden it in earnest for years now.

 

[u_i]

Was merely sharing some thoughts on a video I'd recently viewed - no need to get on your high horse. Please refer to the title of this forum - CycleChat. Bromptons are bicycles, and I like chatting about bicycles, so what's the issue? You seem to be an authority on Brompton maintenance, perhaps you could upload a suitable video yourself. Just to clarify, it was never my intention to spread 'phantasy facts' as you claim, neither on this occasion or any other.

I baffled by the attempt to push responsibility for reporting correct info on others.

 

[yoho oy]

I have to disagree here . Brompton is one of those iconic products, like VW Beetle, or Ford T, or a Singer sewing machine, that through meticulous design and lucky timing define the field that they represent. When talking about a folding bicycle, the comparison to Brompton is inevitable, even if it ends up losing in such a comparison. It seems to be frozen in time, and they took forever to come up with an electric version, even after the market was flooded with 3rd party conversion kits, but the quality, the stability of the design, the elegant form, the few carefully chosen properties optimized to perfection are what caused this to become a cult product, with its fervent following richly represented in this thread . I wish my Brompton was much lighter, I wish it was easier to maintain (fixing a flat is a nightmare!) I wish it had all the bells and whistles of a modern bike, but I'll love it and I'll hold to it nevertheless, even though I haven't really ridden it in earnest for years now.

I owned some expensive items in the past, and if you look at them very close, you see that marketing is a big part of the strategy. Also Brompton does use a lot of machine work too these days. Just look at some factory tour videos on youtube. Most of the things these days with higher price tag are made in China and even materials not that great. So most companies capitalize on their brand name. There is one quite cult like product with fruit logo in electronics space. In my oppinion their products simply s**k. But how many people want to stand out of the crowd by asking others "do you have XYZ charger?" As if charging the phone supposed to be some sort of privilege. At the end of the day Brompton is still a bike. Yes, it folds neatly, weights a bit less (probably sacrificing some riding comfort compared with 20" bikes). One thing that I am baffled about is that after ordering a bike they don't email you invoice, or order tracking number and spam you with useless emails about buying more things from them (at full price of course) when you simply have zero need for them- you haven't got the bike yet.