Brompton clones

[rogerzilla]

One advantage of lower-strength, thicker steel in this application is that it takes longer to rust through; Reynolds 753 racing frames were popular in the 80s and 90s but a large proportion have now rotted out at the chainstays. Rust doesn't care about high strength and heat treatment!

 

[FrankCrank]

I often wondered why Brommies were brazed and not TIG'ed, and if they're using dissimilar metals in the frame that might explain it. As a welder hobbyist, I use both stainless and mild steel on my projects. I use TIG, and always with stainless 304 filler wire - no issues. Not sure if anyone here has enough experience in this area, but I would think a suitable TIG filler wire could used to successfully weld the dissimilar metals on Brommies. At least one of the clones I've seen is TIG'ed, but no idea of what exact tube metal is used. Anyways, I think Bromptons biggest selling point is their pedigree, and that is something the newcomers can't clone.

 

[rogerzilla]

Fillet brazing is usually a last resort for odd tube sizes and angles where you can't use a lug. It's labour-intensive, adds a fair bit of dead weight, and the brass isn't cheap either.

Artisan TIG welding is even more expensive (see http://www.vintagemtbworkshop.com/1990-fat-chance-yo-eddy.html for how it can look) but it's lighter and the heat is far more localised.

 

[Milkfloat]

Whilst Brommie’s are the best small wheeled folding bike and perhaps the best folding bike all round, I bet if you started an owners thread asking for improvement ideas it would get flooded with great suggestions. Many people recognise that it is the best current product, but certainly not perfect. However, I have been waiting a long time for a company to come along and make a better offering.

 

[u_i]

Many people recognise that it is the best current product, but certainly not perfect. However, I have been waiting a long time for a company to come along and make a better offering.

Good luck waiting! You are very wrong. Brompton is astoundingly well optimized for its functions. The 'improvements' that people usually have in mind are usually optimizations for their own needs or wants. Some want more gears, some want less weight, some more luggage capacity, etc. The existing Brompton is a very good starting point. The way to get there is to get off the couch and do the needed customization or have someone to do them, in place of theorizing.

 

[FrankCrank]

I've seen a few Brommies up close, but yet to ride one. I have ridden a few 20" wheeled bikes, folding and non. They're great on small journeys, and to bring in the car when traveling. One thing that immediately strikes me is how twitchy things get when wheel size is reduced, and also ride comfort is compromised. When I get back to Reading I ride a MTB with 26" wheels, and even that struggles on some of the potholes and rough river/canal tracks. Sounds like Bommies are very much a niche thing - in a certain situation nothing can rival them.

 

[simongt]

far east manufacturers have worked out how to make reasonable copies of the basic product for lot less money.

So, as apparently most frames are made in said 'far east', how come some bikes are still so 'kin expensive then - ?

 

[cougie uk]

One advantage of lower-strength, thicker steel in this application is that it takes longer to rust through; Reynolds 753 racing frames were popular in the 80s and 90s but a large proportion have now rotted out at the chainstays. Rust doesn't care about high strength and heat treatment!

Yep. My beautiful handmade racing frame in 653 corroded through at the chrome chainstays. Wouldn't mind but it only went out in dry weather !

 

[simongt]

Sounds like Bommies are very much a niche thing - in a certain situation nothing can rival them.

Niche to a point. The GLW and I have been riding Brommies for several years now, almost exclusively urban; shopping, pub etc.. For such purposes, they're very hard to beat. Can carry a good load which can simply be lobbed into the front carrier which doesn't affect the handling as it's fixed to the main frame and not the handlebars.
How do they ride - ? Like a Brommie - ! Because of their unusual design, you can't really compare them with anythng else and we've had Dahon folders and a Giant Halfway. No contest. Brommies are fun - ! And of course, a breeze to fit in a car or on a coach, bus, train.

 

[simongt]

Not forgetting that in 1991, Andrew Ritchie was approached by Peter Wang of Eurotai who wanted to licence build Brommies in - yes, Taiwan. Long story short, Ritchie was so appalled at the poor quality control, short cuts, standards, he brought the whole production back to the UK and has stuck with that ever since.
So the Brommie is still a truly British bike built to top standards, hence the higher price tags.

 

[berlinonaut]

Not forgetting that in 1991, Andrew Ritchie was approached by Peter Wang of Eurotai who wanted to licence build Brommies in - yes, Taiwan. Long story short, Ritchie was so appalled at the poor quality control, short cuts, standards, he brought the whole production back to the UK and has stuck with that ever since.

I would tell the story and it's end slightly differently: Brompton had a scaling problem back then and could not serve demand. Eurothai promised to produce 100s of 1000s of Brommis for wider parts of the Asian market, got a license agreement and in consequence tools, plans and training from Brompton. Ironically David Hon, the owner of Dahon warned Andrew Richie not to do business with them but his advice was ignored. The Brompton bikes built by the joined venture between Brompton and Eurothai, Neobike, were recognizably cheaper but also of way worse quality and Brompton was not happy. If you look at Brompton's balance sheets from that time you can see no positive effect from that licensing in terms of income (at least I could not). The production numbers that were initially promised were never reached, not even a fraction of it. Quality was an issue over the whole period. The breaking handlebars that Brompton's had in the nineties were supplied by Neobike as well.

Being not happy, to say it politely, Andrew Richie ended the license agreement with them at the end of the regular contract after 10 years in 2002. Neobike did not give back tools and plans as it would have been their obligation but instead started to build unlicensed Brompton copies. This is how the whole cloning of Bromptons started and this is also why many of the clones we see today are still based on the MK2 design which Brompton itself got already rid of in 2000.

Some employees of Neobike/Eurothai even ended up in prison as they had also stolen intellectual property from Dahon. Only in recent years some of the cloners start experimenting with i.e. different hinges (not for the better if you ask me) and only very recently some started cloning newer features like the 6-speed. With many clones you see details on the frame that make absolutely no sense today any more or on the clone bikes - they were simply directly copied from the outdated original w/o thinking or any understanding (which you can also see on some details of many of those clones - the makers simply do not understand the product and do not bother). So in the end the majority of Brompton clones we see today are probably still a more or less direct result of the licensing of the production to an Asian manufacturer in the early 90ies - an adventure that ended 20 years ago and probably taught Brompton not just one lesson. I assume one of the reasons why they relate to UK based production is the outcome of the Neobike deal.

A bit about this episode can be found on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neobike

 

[Kell]

There is certainly some mistaken belief that "British Made" still stands for guaranteed quality.

When it comes to bikes, I would have no qualms in accepting that the reputable factories in Taiwan produce bikes of equal quality (if not better) to those produced in Europe. The trick, I guess (as outlined above) is knowing which of those factories are reputable.

That jingo-istic, pro-Brexit idea that we can shut ourselves off from the rest of the world and that we are still the 'best' at everything probably hasn't been true for centuries, let alone decades. If it even was true in the first place. We seem to excel at low volume, high-quality, artisanal one-man/woman products, but not really in producing high volumes at anything like a competitive price.

Back on track though, there's no actual reason why any style of folding bike should be worse in quality than a Brompton in absolute terms just because it's manufactured somewhere else. The problem is that with any type of clones (shoes, clothes, jewellery) is that they're normally made with inferior materials and you have very little recompense if things go wrong. The makers are not interested in longevity and customer service and are only interested in taking your money. Bearing in mind that part of my commute involves a 40mph+ downhill, I certainly wouldn't want to be doing that if I thought the bars might snap. Or the hinge might come apart.

Value is often mistakenly equated to price. But (for me) the Brompton absolutely justifies its price. It saves me enough that I could buy two/three a year and still save money. You could argue that a cheaper bike would save me even more, but then (as I've said a few times before) I had two Dahons and they both snapped. Not only that, but I had nothing but trouble with the hinges. They needed constant adjustment and almost always squeaked or creaked. The wheels were poor, the components were of pretty low quality too - and the bikes weren't that much less than a Brompton.

At £900 my Dahon Matrix was only £180 less expensive than the Brompton that replaced it, but it felt a lot cheaper.

 

[rogerzilla]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Merc-Bro...86&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0#vi__app-cvip-panel

There's one born every minute.

 

[FrankCrank]

There is certainly some mistaken belief that "British Made" still stands for guaranteed quality.

When it comes to bikes, I would have no qualms in accepting that the reputable factories in Taiwan produce bikes of equal quality (if not better) to those produced in Europe. The trick, I guess (as outlined above) is knowing which of those factories are reputable.

That jingo-istic, pro-Brexit idea that we can shut ourselves off from the rest of the world and that we are still the 'best' at everything probably hasn't been true for centuries, let alone decades. If it even was true in the first place. We seem to excel at low volume, high-quality, artisanal one-man/woman products, but not really in producing high volumes at anything like a competitive price.

Back on track though, there's no actual reason why any style of folding bike should be worse in quality than a Brompton in absolute terms just because it's manufactured somewhere else. The problem is that with any type of clones (shoes, clothes, jewellery) is that they're normally made with inferior materials and you have very little recompense if things go wrong. The makers are not interested in longevity and customer service and are only interested in taking your money. Bearing in mind that part of my commute involves a 40mph+ downhill, I certainly wouldn't want to be doing that if I thought the bars might snap. Or the hinge might come apart.

Value is often mistakenly equated to price. But (for me) the Brompton absolutely justifies its price. It saves me enough that I could buy two/three a year and still save money. You could argue that a cheaper bike would save me even more, but then (as I've said a few times before) I had two Dahons and they both snapped. Not only that, but I had nothing but trouble with the hinges. They needed constant adjustment and almost always squeaked or creaked. The wheels were poor, the components were of pretty low quality too - and the bikes weren't that much less than a Brompton.

At £900 my Dahon Matrix was only £180 less expensive than the Brompton that replaced it, but it felt a lot cheaper.

Speaking of Dahon, saw a video yesterday reviewing two of their bikes out in Japan, both folders, one steel framed and one aly.
They both had something I hadn't seen before, a cable brace:

When the frame is folded, the cable support folds in on itself, much like a brake/gear cable. Presumably, they were having issues with stress fractures, necessitating this new feature. They now say the bikes can carry a rider of 130kg.

As to the Brommie story, think the outsourcing fiasco to Taiwan was of their own making. They needed a member of staff, or a team, there full time to oversee QC, not just taking things on face value. Same goes for China, India or wherever - they can build crap or build to a high standard, just needs careful monitoring.

 

[Kell]

Speaking of Dahon, saw a video yesterday reviewing two of their bikes out in Japan, both folders, one steel framed and one aly.
They both had something I hadn't seen before, a cable brace:
View attachment 608452
When the frame is folded, the cable support folds in on itself, much like a brake/gear cable. Presumably, they were having issues with stress fractures, necessitating this new feature. They now say the bikes can carry a rider of 130kg.

As to the Brommie story, think the outsourcing fiasco to Taiwan was of their own making. They needed a member of staff, or a team, there full time to oversee QC, not just taking things on face value. Same goes for China, India or wherever - they can build crap or build to a high standard, just needs careful monitoring.

Not seen that on a Dahon before, but I did see one on a bike in our old work car park. No idea who it belonged to, and I don't understand enough about engineering to work out what it did*, but it was a full size bike.

I'm sure my brain seems to think it was branded by PUMA (the sportswear brand) - but I'm guessing it wasn't a proprietary design if so.

*I'm guessing as it's a cable, it only helps under tension - so stops the bike folding in half by the seat moving towards the bars.