Broke a spoke; Bike is 30 years old... best to get wheel rebuilt?

[albion]

I want to amend my easlier statement of you not understanding tensioned structures. I was wrong. It shoud read: " You don't understand tensioned structures, friction, metallurgy, physics, bicycles or structured debate." *

* Note that this statement is not necessarilly complete. I reserve the right to add to it.

How about posting some science to back yourself? One might just think you are selling your product.
Incomplete!

 

[biketrailerguy]

A Carry Freedom 'Y' (large) which I have

Thanks for the info - had heard of them, but never seen one in the flesh. 90kg max. load is approaching double the max (50kg) I've towed - and even that's something I wouldn't want to do on a regular basis.

at the time I was towing an unladen trailer having delivered a wooden pallet

Assuming the pallet is a standard size, do you have an existing, pre-made fixture / raiser block to carry such items so they clear the wheels - or just 'wing' it as needs require?

 

[Ajax Bay]

Fatigue here seems to be the term used for wear due to friction and or movement.

Nope
One final request to posit where this friction 'and/or' movement occurs, to help us understand (where you're coming from).

Rofl.

Everything I put there is from the science fact. There seems to be a spanner in the spoke works.

As Ian says: "Any links to this 'science fact'?" [ Not yet ]

I want to amend my earlier statement of you not understanding tensioned structures. I was wrong. It should read: " You don't understand tensioned structures, friction, metallurgy, physics, bicycles or structured debate."

Please get your assessments more complete first time round. A little bit of forethought goes a long way. It was clear to anyone with prescience that an appeal to "science fact" [citation required] was only just over the horizon.

Personally, I'd replace one spoke and cross fingers. If another goes... well, I might replace that too, but I'd be thinking about a rebuild.

Me too. But I accepted the OP thinking it was time for a replace or relace of the wheel with a broken spoke.
My experience with 30+ year old wheels, the spokes of which started going, coloured my acceptance of this premise.

For @Big John: I refer the honourable member to the four letter word element of this august forum [ as in https://www.cyclechat.net/ ]

 

[wafter]

Not read the whole thread (nor do I probably want to, judging by some of the egos flying about), but FWIW I rebuilt the wheels on my Routier with ally rims and the odd spare spoke without huge issue; using the inverted bike to true them and internet info to lace them. It was time-consuming if relatively straightforward and satisfying.

I'd already broken one spoke so replaced that with one from the donor bike; all has been well so far but it's probably only covered a few hundred miles since.

Personally because I'm tight I'd probably both replace the broken spoke in isolation, and if that didn't pan out rebuild the wheels myself..

 

[Big John]

Not read the whole thread (nor do I probably want to, judging by some of the egos flying about), but FWIW I rebuilt the wheels on my Routier with ally rims and the odd spare spoke without huge issue; using the inverted bike to true them and internet info to lace them. It was time-consuming if relatively straightforward and satisfying.

I'd already broken one spoke so replaced that with one from the donor bike; all has been well so far but it's probably only covered a few hundred miles since.

Personally because I'm tight I'd both probably replace the broken spoke in isolation, and if that didn't pan out rebuild the wheels myself..

Here here, I say! 👍

 

[albion]

Apologies for misusing the word friction. There became a lot of internal heat stress in this forum. Fatiguing,
My brain is simply full of very tiny moving molecules that rub the wrong way.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Here here, I say! 👍

Where? Where?





'

 

[Ajax Bay]

Here here, I say! 👍

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hear,_hear

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

Thanks for the info - had heard of them, but never seen one in the flesh. 90kg max. load is approaching double the max (50kg) I've towed - and even that's something I wouldn't want to do on a regular basis.

Assuming the pallet is a standard size, do you have an existing, pre-made fixture / raiser block to carry such items so they clear the wheels - or just 'wing' it as needs require?

Don't think I've had anything approaching the max load on this trailer. It's substantially lower if using a quick release axle.
I just place the pallet on the trailer upright with the weight centred and strapped it down so it couldn't move in any direction.

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

Had some enlightenment this morning, in terms of why this might have happened.

Friend sent me pictures of his chain this morning. It had about 20 links with cracks on the outer plates around the pins, perpendicular to the direction the chain travels in. He couldn't understand it as this chain had done about 500 miles. I asked him about what he'd cleaned the chain with - he said Muc-Off Biodegradable Drivetrain Cleaner.

So I did a bit of searching and I found a thread on Reddit and a thread on an MTB forum where the same thing had happened to people using the same degreaser.

When I serviced the bike a few hundred km ago, I cleaned it and I degreased the drive train with the same degreaser. I didn't leave it on too long and rinsed it off thoroughly with water using a soft spray setting on the hose nozzle I'd bought for bike cleaning. As I'd not wanted to wash degreaser into bearings and recently resurrected freehub, I was quite careful not to directly soak those components with water, but I did make sure they got rinsed if that makes any sense.

So it's possible the spoke suffered hydrogen embrittlement causing this premature failure on this low mileage bike. Which probably means the other drive side spokes and the drive side hub flange is also affected?

Also, not getting anywhere (so far) with getting a wheel built for this bike (622-20 with 135mm OLN on a solid 9mm axle). I'm loathed to do it myself. I could go for a 10mm hub and file the drop outs. Or maybe salvage a wheel from a similar second hand bike and leave it at light duties only, and get a modern tourer build for loaded touring. Or cargo bike.

I'll see if I get anything back from my various enquiries RE: new wheel and go from there.

 

[Ajax Bay]

Friend's chain . . . about 20 links with cracks on the outer plates around the pins, . . . chain had done about 500 miles. . . had used Muc-Off Biodegradable Drivetrain Cleaner. I found a thread on Reddit and a thread on an MTB forum where the same thing had happened to people using the same degreaser.
When I serviced the bike a few hundred km ago, I cleaned it and I degreased the drive train with the same degreaser. I didn't leave it on too long and rinsed it off thoroughly with water using a soft spray setting on the hose nozzle I'd bought for bike cleaning. As I'd not wanted to wash degreaser into bearings and recently resurrected freehub, I was quite careful not to directly soak those components with water, but I did make sure they got rinsed if that makes any sense.
So it's possible the spoke suffered hydrogen embrittlement causing this premature failure on this low mileage bike. Which probably means the other drive side spokes and the drive side hub flange is also affected?

Cool story bro!
Sounds as if your friend didn't rinse off the chain after dumping that stuff on it.
"low mileage bike" - you don't know this - the bike is 30 years old you've had it 10 years, with some heavy lifting.
Given you rinsed off 'thoroughly' etc, on a (stainless steel) spoke the chances of H2 embrittlement caused by any negligible residual concentration is v slim. Chains (made of HT steel) with their ability to squirrel stuff away, an issue:
https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/hydrogen-embrittlement-can-you-really-break-a-chain
Additional info (on tiny risk): The hub will be aluminum (assumed) and Al alloy is less susceptible even in adverse conditions. If the spokes are stainless steel, similarly, significantly lower risk. Greater risk if not.
You (still) haven't said where the break occurred: at the J bend or at the nipple/thread?
Right or left side spoke?
Replace this first one; ride on; but don't be surprised if another one goes on you.

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

No, my friend rinsed his chain off. I work with the guy. He is a dilligent and careful type. Not only that, but in both those threads I found, same thing. Of course, I take what most people on the Internet say with a pinch of salt but if my friend rinses his chains off, he rinses his chain off. And if he says that chain (his bike) had only done 500 miles, it had only done 500 miles. His story is not isolated. One of the posters on one of these threads shows a picture of a chain with a large number of cracks in it after a few hundred kilometers and swears blind they didn't soak it in the degreaser.

I realised moments after I posted, the hub will be aluminum but I hadn't had chance to correct that prior to coming back and reading your rather pointed reply. The spokes are not stainless. The break is at the bend.

When I got the bike it was absolutely like new. No wear to the rims. They were barely 'run in'. Well, they might not have been the original rims, but there was no wear anywhere else either. There was not a single scratch on the frame. Just some spotted surface corrosion on the handle bars from storage. The bike even came with a set of panniers, which were also like new. I checked the chain with a chain wear gauge although I need not have bothered. It measured as good as any new chain.

I clocked up 500 miles commuting on it one summer not long after I bought it - as recorded on my old Garmin. And 346.5 miles on it since I started cycling again. Maybe a smidge more as I didn't log my first few trips out. So that's not even a thousand miles.

It had new tyres as the old ones were dry-rotted. And as I think I already said, the free hub stopped engaging because the grease had dried out.

I'll hopefully find an evening this week to strip the wheel down and take another spoke out so I can measure it. At least get the bike back on the road, for now.

 

[wafter]

No, my friend rinsed his chain off. I work with the guy. He is a dilligent and careful type. Not only that, but in both those threads I found, same thing. Of course, I take what most people on the Internet say with a pinch of salt but if my friend rinses his chains off, he rinses his chain off. And if he says that chain (his bike) had only done 500 miles, it had only done 500 miles. His story is not isolated. One of the posters on one of these threads shows a picture of a chain with a large number of cracks in it after a few hundred kilometers and swears blind they didn't soak it in the degreaser.

I realised moments after I posted, the hub will be aluminum but I hadn't had chance to correct that prior to coming back and reading your rather pointed reply. The spokes are not stainless. The break is at the bend.

When I got the bike it was absolutely like new. No wear to the rims. They were barely 'run in'. Well, they might not have been the original rims, but there was no wear anywhere else either. There was not a single scratch on the frame. Just some spotted surface corrosion on the handle bars from storage. The bike even came with a set of panniers, which were also like new. I checked the chain with a chain wear gauge although I need not have bothered. It measured as good as any new chain.

I clocked up 500 miles commuting on it one summer not long after I bought it - as recorded on my old Garmin. And 346.5 miles on it since I started cycling again. Maybe a smidge more as I didn't log my first few trips out. So that's not even a thousand miles.

It had new tyres as the old ones were dry-rotted. And as I think I already said, the free hub stopped engaging because the grease had dried out.

I'll hopefully find an evening this week to strip the wheel down and take another spoke out so I can measure it. At least get the bike back on the road, for now.

This is interesting - do you have any evidence / a hypothesis to backup the "hydrogen embrittlement" theory?

I've used this on several bikes / chains and have never noticed an issue... although granted probably most of the chains it's been used on have since been disposed of in favour of new, waxed alternatives.

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

This is interesting - do you have any evidence / a hypothesis to backup the "hydrogen embrittlement" theory?

I've used this on several bikes / chains and have never noticed an issue... although granted probably most of the chains it's been used on have since been disposed of in favour of new, waxed alternatives.

I'm not a metallurgist so sadly I don't. It's a bit of a long shot.

I've invested in a set of scales so I can work out typically what load I'm carrying (including rider). Not sure that this helps much but most bikes / wheelsets seem to have a system weight limit of 120 kg. The bike typically weighs, I'm figuring around 20-25kg. I weigh, I think, around 75 kg. The trailer is around 8kg. The pallet I move that day, was probably about 15-20 kg.

That amounts to 128 kg - although the bike isn't bearing the full weight of the trailer and it's load - but it will still amount to extra tension on the drive side spokes when the power is put down. I don't think I've really pushed it much more than that.

Anyway, I'll stop over thinking it and in the short term get the spoke replaced.

 

[Ajax Bay]

Thank you for sharing. We now have a picture of a 30 year old bike which has supported heavy loads but done very little mileage.
It is possible that the previous owner(s) for 20 years had replaced the rims but used the old spokes, but it seems unlikely.
This amount of use means the likelihood of fatigue as the reason for failure is much reduced (compared to the likelihood of a wheel from a 30 year old bike (see OP)).
Just replace the spoke, as you've decided.
Really easy, once you get the spoke length right, to replace the spoke you've removed (to measure) and install the new spoke, and tension up till the spokes on the same side (rear wheel) pluck the same.
And then a final true. If you don't want to rely on yourself to do the last bit, take the wheel, with no rim tape but the spokes all in, to your LBS and if competent it is 5-10 minute job.
In the medium term worth considering whether to replace all the spokes with stainless. Again working on the 'one out, one in' method with LBS doing the final true, this would result in wheel(s) you can rely on till the end of time.