Armstrong charged and banned

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Alun

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Judge Sam Sparks is taking 20 days? to look at this submission, he hasn't thrown it out immediately.
I think he'll take a close look at USADA's mandate, any alleged "mission creep" and the status of the testimonies.
He might well side with USADA, but I don't think he'll rubber stamp anything!
 
Absolutely. Isn't it possible to agree the following things all at once:
LA is almost certainly guilty
USADA is not a law court
USADA is largely if not entirely following its own stated procedures, which LA along with everyone else under its jurisdiction has in principle accepted
LA's objections to USADA's procedures are probably more motivated by a calculating strategy to avoid being banned, or to minimise the consequences if he is, than by considerations of fairness
USADA's procedures and powers have an unfair feel about them, in that they result in sanctions similar to those a law court could impose, and they have powers that equal or go beyond those a law court would have, yet they are lacking many of the protections for the accused and the checks and balances that are the quid pro quo of the powers that a law court has.

`i don't have much trouble with most of that except with the pre-judging of his guilt. He is innocent until proven guilty not guilty until proven innocent and we should extend him that courtesy. There is a wide assumption of his guilt but all attempts to prove it so far have failed so we are left with rumour, hearsay, innuendo and guilt by association. Those are not good enough when you are talking of destroying someone's reputation, career anf finances.

Why am I banging on about this? Because I am fed up with pseudo-judicial agencies bully boy tactics when they can't prove anything legally. Imagine for example if TVLA were able to fine innocent people for not having a TV License instead of sending them repeated threats of prosecution for which they have no evidence week after week after year after year.
 
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yello

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As to be expected, a Congressman weighs in with his 2 cents worth in a letter to USADAs funding body the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP)...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/us-congressman-questions-role-of-usada-in-armstrong-case

"Congress designated USADA as the United States’ National Anti-Doping Organization in 2000, but the agency is seeking to sanction Armstrong for conduct beginning in 1998. Furthermore, during Armstrong’s cycling career, the International Cycling Union (UCI) had exclusive authority to sanction Armstrong for violation of its anti-doping rules," he said.

Quite how he determines that UCI had "exclusive authority", I don't know. USADAs response was swift...

The evidence is overwhelming, and were we not to bring this case, we would be complicit in covering up evidence of doping, and failing to do our job on behalf of those we are charged with protecting.
 
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yello

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A lot of people are assuming that the evidence was collected in a way that will make a court take USADA to the cleaners but I just don't see it.

For me, the scenario that gives me concern is the presence of a federal agent in the room whilst USADA conducted interviews. I've read that there is a legal precedent for that establishing 'state agency'. It's a waiting game and we'll just have to see how Sparks decides the issue.
 
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yello

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Some more info about USADA's evidence

Interesting stuff. Good to see some numbers given to data "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions".... not that I'd know either way!

I found this comment interesting....

If Armstrong's federal lawsuit moves forward, the significance of the blood tests could be weighed by a jury in Sparks' courtroom in Austin, Texas. If the lawsuit fails, and Armstrong challenges USADA's accusations on its own terms, the matter will head to an arbitration hearing, where the blood tests will be debated by experts and assessed by a panel of independent arbitrators.

Do I read that correctly? If Armstrong's lawsuit succeeds, then the matter is decided in court. If not, then in a USADA hearing. That is, the lawsuit will determine a location but not halt proceedings completely. I'd be comfortable with that. But I wonder if that wasn't the paper's intended implication.
 
I don't get that, nor do I pay it much credence. I don't get the fully consistent with doping; if so why has the UCI not acted previously, they must have the same data. Decided in court, well that would blow USADA's credibility and procedures out the water and open them up to a whole bunch of appeals, surely?
 
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yello

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I don't get the fully consistent with doping; if so why has the UCI not acted previously, they must have the same data.

Michael Ashenden explained why that might be (I'm pretty sure there's a link upstream for his explanation). In my crude terms, it's due to the detection mechanism and the levels of analysis. If a result doesn't trigger suspicion on the 1st level test then the analysis doesn't ever happen. As I understood it, the parameters on that first level test are such that suspect results can pass. But I stand to be corrected as Ashenden's description (whilst basic) was beyond my full understanding.
 

Alun

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Liverpool
Do I read that correctly? If Armstrong's lawsuit succeeds, then the matter is decided in court. If not, then in a USADA hearing. That is, the lawsuit will determine a location but not halt proceedings completely. I'd be comfortable with that. But I wonder if that wasn't the paper's intended implication.
I don't know where that has come from, not heard anything about it before. Could it be just idle speculation from the journalist?
 
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yello

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Decided in court, well that would blow USADA's credibility and procedures out the water and open them up to a whole bunch of appeals, surely?

It could couldn't it? May not though if it refers only to the evidence collected for this investigation. I'm reading between the lines somewhat but I think what is in contention here is any evidence flow between the feds and USADA, or any joint evidence gathering.

Given the nature of the federal investigation, I don't actually think there was too much of their evidence that would have been of use to USADA. Blood/urine test results etc, I would imagine USADA would have ready access to regardless of who the testing agency was. And obviously the independent analysis of those results didn't need the feds either. So I reckon the testimony evidence is the focus and whether the feds assisted (in some manner) there. On that issue, USADA didn't need the feds to make the interviews happen. Anyone (private individuals included) can subpoena another to provide testimony if they choose not to speak voluntarily.
 

Alun

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Location
Liverpool
I don't get that, nor do I pay it much credence. I don't get the fully consistent with doping; if so why has the UCI not acted previously, they must have the same data. Decided in court, well that would blow USADA's credibility and procedures out the water and open them up to a whole bunch of appeals, surely?

If it were to be heard in court I don't think this sort of statement would cut it

That would ring bells," said Wadler. "That would certainly require some explanation as to why there was such an aberration. From a strictly medical point of view, that's a little unusual."
Wadlers statement doesn't say that the blood HAS been doped, just that he would need some explanation

This data is fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions.
USADA aren't actually saying that the blood HAS been doped, but that it is consistent with blood that has been subject to EPO or it has been transfused or both. Too many variables there for my liking, and a jury's I would think.
 

Alun

Guru
Location
Liverpool
If USADA is to be treated as a "State Actor" is that possibly the reason that the hearing would be in a District Court?
 
It isn't just about the credibility of drug tests. If enough reliable witnesses come forward to claim they saw Armstrong doping then that alone could be regarded as sufficient proof, similarly to a criminal investigation into a murder where there is no forensic evidence but plenty of eye witnesses who swear they saw X shoot Y.

It will be interesting to see who exactly has testified against Lance. Aren't relations with his ex wife a bit fraught?
 

swansonj

Guru
I am not (and have never pretended to be) an expert on doping. But I am professionally immersed in debates about how confident scientists should be, and how confident they say they are, in their own data. Arguments based on "we can't see any other explanation for these findings" should always be treated with suspicion because scientists almost always subconsciously downplay the likelihood of alternative explanations they haven't thought of. To say "this sequence of haematocrit readings is compatible with doping" seems true. To say "it is hard to think of any alternative explanation" is probably also fair. To say "this therefore suggests doping took place" is also fair comment - except that it almost certainly doesn't suggest it as strongly as the person saying that means. That, sadly, is the human nature as applied to scientists, and I speak as one myself.

I guess this comes back to the level of proof required. IF the test were "beyond reasonable doubt" (which we all know is not the case for USADA) then there would have to be a lot of debate about whether "we can't think of any alternative explanation" applied to these blood tests would be good enough (though I repeat I am not an expert in either the lay or court senses, so I can't really judge how strong this particular piece of evidence is, it's just my hunch). If the test were "balance of probabilities" it probably would be good enough. As I understand it, the USADA test is somewhere between those two.

(and of course, those of us who are simply trying to make our best assessment of the truth, rather than to follow USADA procedures, don't judge these data in isolation - if we have other reasons for suspecting LA of doping, that quite legitimately alters our assessment of the relative likelihood of the doping versus no doping alternative explanations.)
 
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