Armstrong charged and banned

[Red Light]

And you think these guys all operate in a little bubble, with no-one else involved? And why should he effectively lie again, by covering up for Armstrong & co?

The question is not should he lie again but is he lying again.

 

[Red Light]

Even knitting can affect cycling!
Does this count as a fairing and hence aerodynamic advantage?

!

Clearly trying to pull the wool over UCI

 

[rich p]

You wish.... but I have standards and an open mind

Both exclude being your supporter

Listen up matey as I'm only going to say this once - even though I've said it, as have many others, many times before.
I once had an open mind, and I think I'm speaking for a lot of people who have watched cycling for many years. I started off admiring and respecting Armstrong and loving the way he rode the TdF, his power and strength of will, the look he gave Ullrich and the dominance of USPS. I have stated before, I used to take a day off work on the queen stage just to see LA hopefully destroy the opposition. However, the trickle of evidence of doping from circumstantial to hard eveidence gradually eroded my admiration and belief to the point that I was left with no alternative to the fact that LA and USPS were clearly doped.
This wasn't a position I got to by flipping a coin - it was achieved by starting with an open mind, seeing the evidence and then arriving at a conclusion. That's how evidence based decison making works.
There is no compulsion or requirement for you to agree but I do resent being called closed-minded and fixated, even by you, for whom I have very low regard.
As to being fixated with Armstrong, I conversely believe you to be guilty of that. I have a history on here of posting and deploring any rider who has been charged, convicted or accused of drug-taking; accusing the UCI of systemic failure; ridiculing Verbruggen and McQuaid, and much going back years.
I also post in this section ad nauseam about the actual races such as the Vuelta a Espana which I can inform you is currently going on. I even started a thread on the Eneco Tour, which as many in the know will tell you is a leap of hope over expectation. You, on the other hand, I have only seen posting in Racing on the Armstrong thread. Thank you and goodnight.

 

[Noodley]

He is. If he wants to confess his own sins in public, that's his prerogative but to confess someone ELSE'S sins, that's the mark of a Judas. Not meaning to be all biblical or anything but some things just bring contempt and grassing your fellow conspirator up is one of them.

Is this stance unique to Liverpudlians and Cockney gangsters?

 

[Noodley]

Listen up matey

I always know the rest of a post is gonna be fun when it starts with "listen up matey"

 

[thom]

I am not denying that Armstrong is the way in, it is simply that I am concerned that much of the real story is going to be hidden in the noise.

In the meanwhile, can I refer you back to an earlier post where my position on Armstrong being the key?

(My emphasis)

Hardly refusing to accept that Armstrong is the key!

The difference is that I want to look at the wider picture.

The problem is you come across as reluctant to condemn LA and determined to use the wider picture to excuse his behaviour. There is no room for that. It needs to be clear that drug cheats do not get away with it and are responsible for their actions when they break the rules.

There are wider issues and you know, funnily enough everyone knows that but on a thread about LA, it's hardly surprising that isn't the primary focus of the discussion. I refer you to the UCI thread for example. Or start a new one !

 

[martint235]

Good post Rich. It about sums up how I feel too. I've so wanted LA to be innocent but the evidence is now insurmountable. All I can hope for now is that the people I watch today in particular Rodriguez are shown to be clean. Too often now I've admired climbers only to find out they've not done it "on their own".

I am finding David Walsh a touch cloying though. In typical News International fashion, none of this would have been discovered if not for him.

 

[lukesdad]

Havn't you lot got anything better to do on a Sunday morning ?

 

[martint235]

Havn't you lot got anything better to do on a Sunday morning ?

No actually I haven't. I'm on call and can't leave the house.

 

[Noodley]

Havn't you lot got anything better to do on a Sunday morning ?

I do, mowing the lawn. Hence I am here.

 

[Crankarm]

Here's looking forward to another 100 pages.

 

[rich p]

Havn't you lot got anything better to do on a Sunday morning ?

It's bladdy raining Ld! It's either this or the housework.
Hmmmm, hoovering just became a lot more attrative

 

[MichaelM]

I doubt its the biggest sporting fraud in history - its just that cycling has tackled its doping to an extent, something that hasn't happened to the same degree in most other sports. Its just in doing that its got itself a great deal of publicity and therefore is one of the highest profile sporting frauds.

Victor Conte recently said that 60% of the Olympics 2012 athletes will have been doping. He was convicted in 2005 for conspiracy to distribute steroids and was the supplier of a number of high profile athletes including Dwain Chambers. Despite all that he was at the Olympics supporting several of the US athletes.

I find it strange that you're so willing to give the benefit of the doubt to one individual - wanting to see what USADA have etc, yet imply that there is a drug problem in other sports without offering any evidence to substantiate your view.

 

[MichaelM]

Which is what happens when the fixation is with the personality and not the actual evidence.

I must say I am baffled by your views.

On the one hand you seem to discount evidence/witness reports against Armstrong as being "the same old rehashed stories" or from a disgruntled ex employee/team mate. On the other, you seem to be of the view they were all at it and so it's wrong to go after Armstrong.

Do you honestly believe that he won 7 tours without doping?

Edit: I see Thom has put it better than me.

The problem is you come across as reluctant to condemn LA and determined to use the wider picture to excuse his behaviour.There is no room for that. It needs to be clear that drug cheats do not get away with it and are responsible for their actions when they break the rules.

There are wider issues and you know, funnily enough everyone knows that but on a thread about LA, it's hardly surprising that isn't the primary focus of the discussion. I refer you to the UCI thread for example. Or start a new one !

 

[MichaelM]

Havn't you lot got anything better to do on a Sunday morning ?

I'm in a cast and non weight bearing following surgery to my achilies. I've already watched the highlights of yesterday's stage of the Vuelta and played the guitar for a couple of hours. Got to fill my day somehow.