Armstrong charged and banned

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Mr Liggett bites back.. (Twitter)
" I should make it quite clear. I have no business interests with Lance Armstrong as reported on Cyclingnews.com. Please retract -- Phil Liggett (@PhilLiggett)"
I thought it said 'had' not 'has'... but the boy's obviously catching heat from somewhere
 
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yello

Guest
Right. Back to the topic. Tyler Hamilton's book. Looks like a cracker. All we thought and more. And it's not just Armstrong. The entire UCI and also Bjarne 'Mr 60%' Riis don't look like they come out of it well at all.

Indeed.

And just to endorse FM's remarks, more sneak preview, too many snippets to quote, you'll have to read it yourself....

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tyler-hamiltons-book-reveals-in-depth-doping-network

...though I found this little trick interesting

Hamilton confirms the use of a powder termed "polvo", likely protease, an enzyme tucked under the fingernail and introduced into the stream of urine to beat the EPO test. He states several times that Riis helped him refine his transfusion schedule, and that doctors and soigneurs on CSC aided in defeating doping controls by being on "standby" with intravenous saline to water down haematocrit if doping controllers showed up, and doctors on Phonak helped with transfusions.

I am wondering if there will be reprisals for Riis and others.
 
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yello

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I'm seriously thinking about it too Noodley! The salacious details will be re-printed on the web, I'm sure, and the book itself will end up in the discount bins at some point.... but I wanna know now! :laugh:
 

raindog

er.....
Location
France
I am wondering if there will be reprisals for Riis and others.
I wouldn't mind if there was - the guy's always given me the creeps.

But doesn't anyone else find this super-depressing? Talk about being taken for a ride, we've been well and truly shafted for twenty years. I seriously feel like packing up watching the sport. With EPO bike racing has shot itself in the foot big time.
 
...though I found this little trick interesting
Hamilton confirms the use of a powder termed "polvo", likely protease, an enzyme tucked under the fingernail and introduced into the stream of urine to beat the EPO test. He states several times that Riis helped him refine his transfusion schedule, and that doctors and soigneurs on CSC aided in defeating doping controls by being on "standby" with intravenous saline to water down haematocrit if doping controllers showed up, and doctors on Phonak helped with transfusions.


I am wondering if there will be reprisals for Riis and others.

Actually this again brings into question the "Armstrong is the root of all evil" fixation of some, and the real need to step back and look at reality.

I questioned the suggestion a few pages back that Armstrong was being notified in advance of tests so that he was able to cheat the results. I pointed out that this was common practice and that most athletes were in fact notified so as "proof" of Armstrong's guilt" it as flimsy.

The real question hidden in the noise should be what the chaperones were doing between notification and testing. If they were not doing their job then the system would fail. None of the above should have been possible if true observation had taken place.

If this is case as suggested then this is indeed what has happened.

The other point that is again going to be dismissed is that these "Armstrong" revelations are again going to shout down all the other revelations.

It would appear from these books that the majority of riders either participated or were aware of these practices. It calls into question in some way the integrity of every single rider and team in the Tour at that time.... if these revelations are true then it would not have been possible for any rider not to know what was going on.

Is it time to forget the Armstrong fixation and look at the actions of all the main protagonists and the sport as a whole?
 
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yello

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But doesn't anyone else find this super-depressing? Talk about being taken for a ride, we've been well and truly shafted for twenty years. I seriously feel like packing up watching the sport.

Personally, no, I don't find it depressing. But I don't have the emotional investment in cycling, and the love for the history of cycling, that many of you do. I'm not into pro-cycling like many that post here are, I only have an interest in it. So I can understand how it might hurt those with those passions.

All I can say is that this is yet another dark period. One I feel cycling has got to to go through, but properly this time. No false dawns like after Festina. There has to be some shakedown of UCI, and I think that will happen, but I think there are too many good people in cycling for it not to come through this patch. Don't give up on it.
 
Who's fixated on Armstrong? I'm not, and never have been. Some of us have been "looking at the actions of the sport as a whole" for decades.

Read back.... the testing regimes, effectiveness of testing other matters were queried way back and summarily dismissed as "fanboy fantasy" and a torrent of abuse by some of the more fixated posters.

An open mind or querying anything outside the closed agenda was unacceptable.

I agree with you fully and that is why I think we need to move away from Armstrong, and look at the widerpicture, although it will be unacceptable and unwelcome for some.
 
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yello

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Actually this again brings into question the "Armstrong is the root of all evil" fixation of some, and the real need to step back and look at reality.

I don't think anyone thinks Armstrong was the only problem, but he is part of "the reality". He was not merely an innocent victim of the times, he took it to another level, beyond being merely a doper. That was the reality. Further, in a thread about Armstrong being sanctioned, addressing that issue is not "fixation", it's staying on topic.
 

Noodley

Guest
I find it strange that the Armstrong apologists seem to think that those of us who have been vocal in condemning all riders who dope always seem to think we in someway 'target' Armstrong - there is no targetting other than he is the most vocal in his denials and is the biggest dope cheat of them all. And that is not to say we do not recognise that he is but part of the problem - but unless he and others come clean then we can never find out the true extent of the problem (including chaperones, who would be under the instruction of far more powerful and influential people, e.g. Armstrong's cronies to turn a blind eye)

So get the feck over yourselves and Armstrong. If you cannot see the full picture, which includes Armstrong and his ilk, then you cannot fully contribute to any debate. Denying Armstrong's part in it and wanting to point fingers elsewhere is not gonna add anything. Accept he was one of the biggest dopers and traffcikers, one of the most influential people in ensuring the Omerta was maintained and that he benefitted finanically within and outwith the sport due to his cheating...and then we can move on to "the others". Unlike Armstrong who is not interested in the sport, we are.

I have expereinced this kind of bullshit for years when I have brought up individual riders and their dodgy practices, and the apologists always use the same arguments - now we have something of more substance and they still hold the same line. I can only assume that they are very shallow, needy individuals who have very little self-worth or self-awareness and live their lives within a very narrow field of understanding, and certainly devoid of a sense of charcater and values.

I'm more than happy to get stuck into the UCI, team managers, team staff, etc...maybe Hamilton's book will give us more to go on - but I suspect the fanboys will merely claim he is embittered, unreliable, never that good anyway, etc. The same old pish that has been spouted for, what seems like, forever.
 
So does he have to hand back the trophies and medals as well? Do all the official TdF videos/DVDs of the years LA won have to be recalled to try to erase his wins from the official record? It is rather Orwellian.

Now somebody has worked out who the winners were for those years you'll get back all your DVDs and videos re-edited to show the true winners. Its amazing what they can do with CGI these days. Step forward two time TdeF winners Fernando Escartin and Jose Azevedo! Whoops, no, scratch that, Azevedo was with Lance in US Postal so must have doped.
 

PaulB

Legendary Member
Location
Colne
Right. Back to the topic. Tyler Hamilton's book. Looks like a cracker. All we thought and more. And it's not just Armstrong. The entire UCI and also Bjarne 'Mr 60%' Riis don't look like they come out of it well at all.
You can't put too much trust in the word of a liar. Since he has a history of being 'economical with the actualite' his comments have to be judged accordingly. His is one of the books I will certainly not be laying too much store by.
 

Noodley

Guest
You can't put too much trust in the word of a liar. Since he has a history of being 'economical with the actualite' his comments have to be judged accordingly. His is one of the books I will certainly not be laying too much store by.

Seriously, I did not communicate with PaulB whilst I was writing my earlier reply :laugh:

But this reply proves my point perfectly....
 
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