another one RIP

[gaz]

Maybe a better voice, or a better way to raise awareness is the problem. What is the LCC doing about it, the CTC? Get it in the newspapers, bring central London to a standstill during rush hour. Critical mass on a Friday night, who really gives a shoot about that?

You haven't heard about our protests on blackfriars bridge? +1,000 cyclists taking up the bridge and cycling slowly.

 

[Red Light]

Didn't know it was on.
What happened, What was the effect?

So never mind what the LCC or CTC are doing about it. What are you doing about it?

TdeD visited the 10 most dangerous roundabouts in London, got a good political profile and coverage on the BBC and in the press and was followed six days later by an announcement that TfL would review all major schemes and all the junctions on existing cycle superhighways. Its only a start but the political momentum seems to be swinging against TfL and Boris.

 

[Fab Foodie]

So never mind what the LCC or CTC are doing about it. What are you doing about it?

TdeD visited the 10 most dangerous roundabouts in London, got a good political profile and coverage on the BBC and in the press and was followed six days later by an announcement that TfL would review all major schemes and all the junctions on existing cycle superhighways. Its only a start but the political momentum seems to be swinging against TfL and Boris.

Sadly I'm not doing anything about it ... apart from provoking some debate.
I genuinely didn't know about the TdeD, or if I saw something here, I must have glanced-over it not being London based.
I'm very pleased that something good has seemingly come out of it.
The truck/bike interface seems a very good focal point to build from. The pressure needs to be maintained.

 

[Brandane]

some people say lorries are dangerous. i don't agree. its some drivers that are dangerous.

Glad you said "some". RIP to the girl who was the victim of this sad incident, but please let's not have a witch hunt on lorry drivers. I am a part time HGV driver myself, and hold a class 1 (i.e. artics) licence. True, there are some who have little regard for other road users, but just as not all cyclists are red light jumping, pavement riding cyclo-terrorists; the vast majority of lorry drivers are very aware of what they must do on the roads to keep themselves and others safe. (Sometimes it goes wrong; no-one is perfect).

The press have a lot to answer for, as usual. "Lorry driver arrested following accident" makes good reading; but often they follow it up with a photo of a rented 7.5 ton "lorry". Anyone with a car licence who passed their test before 1998 (??) can go out and hire one of these. It doesn't make them a lorry driver, and it is wrong that they can be allowed to drive one. This has now been addressed and if you passed your test after that date you have to pass an additional test for anything over 3.5 tons.

I have also seen the same headline attributed to "truck driver" and it turns out the "truck" is one of those 4x4 pick-up truck jobs. Thay can be driven on any car licence.

 

[Red Light]

Brandane, the fact unfortunately remains that cyclist deaths from lorries (in the broader sense) and HGVs in particular is massively out of proportion to their presence on the roads. From memory half of all cyclist deaths in London are from lorries and a third from HGVs. That compares to less than 5% and less than 1% respectively of vehicles on the road in London. There are plenty of other large vehicles on the roads in London - buses, coaches - that are not killing cyclists to anywhere near the same extent so you can't blame vehicle size. And in almost all cases the driver of the lorry or the HGV is arrested.

I accept that just as with cyclists there are good and bad HGV drivers but the massively disproportionate death rate from lorries and HGVs says that something is badly wrong with either the vehicle design, operation or driving. Personally I rate construction lorries by far the worst driven vehicles in London and ones I stay well clear of but also with HGVs near me I always have my bail out options planned - something I don't really have to think about with drivers of other vehicles.

The most recent example was an HGV overtaking me and finding its way blocked by a right turning taxi in the outside lane. Rather than stop behind the taxi he decided to undertake the taxi while still overtaking me. I did a quick pre-planned hop up onto the pavement a bit before the point where the side of the trailer would have knocked me under his rear wheels having already spotted the stopped taxi and what was likely to happen as he started his overtake. Driving like that is just not an acceptable standard no matter what you claim about all the testing he will have gone through.

So we do need a witch hunt on lorry drivers to the point where they feel sufficiently persecuted that they really think about their driving round vulnerable road users and HGVs kill less than 1% of cyclists in London not a third.

 

[Brandane]

The most recent example was an HGV overtaking me and finding its way blocked by a right turning taxi in the outside lane. Rather than stop behind the taxi he decided to undertake the taxi while still overtaking me. I did a quick pre-planned hop up onto the pavement a bit before the point where the side of the trailer would have knocked me under his rear wheels having already spotted the stopped taxi and what was likely to happen as he started his overtake. Driving like that is just not an acceptable standard no matter what you claim about all the testing he will have gone through.

That is bad, and point taken. London does seem to have a far higher proportion of idiot HGV drivers than most other cities. I have driven a car, and a motorbike, and have cycled in London. As far as my personal opinion of London is concerned... well that's not for publishing on a public forum ! Suffice to say it is not my favourite place and I sincerely hope I never have to drive an HGV of any description inside the M25. Take normal HGV driving and then throw in nose to tail traffic; low bridges at every turn (in central London anyway); weight restrictions; width restrictions; narrow Victorian streets with cars parked on both sides and at every corner..... These things would make me even MORE attentive; but then that's just me.... The south side of Glasgow is bad enough, but no-one will ever pay me enough money to go to London!!

 

[xpc316e]

In some cases maybe but the evidence is that in the overwhelming majority of collisions the police place the blame on the driver. In the last three deaths all three lorry drivers have been arrested.

Just because someone else (the truck driver) was to blame does not mean that the cyclist probably could have taken a course of action that might have prevented disaster. We need to stop thinking about who was to blame, and concentrate more on what we could all do to minimise our risk when on the road.

 

[xpc316e]

One area that needs perhaps to be reconsidered is night-time lorry bans. I know that it wouldn't work for building sites, but many businesses could be restocked during the night. It could take a lot of trucks off the road at a time when they are at their busiest.

 

[Red Light]

Just because someone else (the truck driver) was to blame does not mean that the cyclist probably could have taken a course of action that might have prevented disaster. We need to stop thinking about who was to blame, and concentrate more on what we could all do to minimise our risk when on the road.

Yes and women should all wear burqas to go out at night.

 

[col]

Brandane, the fact unfortunately remains that cyclist deaths from lorries (in the broader sense) and HGVs in particular is massively out of proportion to their presence on the roads. From memory half of all cyclist deaths in London are from lorries and a third from HGVs. That compares to less than 5% and less than 1% respectively of vehicles on the road in London. There are plenty of other large vehicles on the roads in London - buses, coaches - that are not killing cyclists to anywhere near the same extent so you can't blame vehicle size. And in almost all cases the driver of the lorry or the HGV is arrested.

I accept that just as with cyclists there are good and bad HGV drivers but the massively disproportionate death rate from lorries and HGVs says that something is badly wrong with either the vehicle design, operation or driving. Personally I rate construction lorries by far the worst driven vehicles in London and ones I stay well clear of but also with HGVs near me I always have my bail out options planned - something I don't really have to think about with drivers of other vehicles.

The most recent example was an HGV overtaking me and finding its way blocked by a right turning taxi in the outside lane. Rather than stop behind the taxi he decided to undertake the taxi while still overtaking me. I did a quick pre-planned hop up onto the pavement a bit before the point where the side of the trailer would have knocked me under his rear wheels having already spotted the stopped taxi and what was likely to happen as he started his overtake. Driving like that is just not an acceptable standard no matter what you claim about all the testing he will have gone through.

So we do need a witch hunt on lorry drivers to the point where they feel sufficiently persecuted that they really think about their driving round vulnerable road users and HGVs kill less than 1% of cyclists in London not a third.

There is always going to be some bad drivers out there, be it in wagons ,cars ,trucks, or even bikes. And I seriously think most drivers of any vehicle especially HGV's are very aware of vulnerable road users, accidents happen. People need to be educated in how to deal with HGV's and other large vehicles, You dont need a witch hunt.

 

[col]

You haven't heard about our protests on blackfriars bridge? +1,000 cyclists taking up the bridge and cycling slowly.

Blocking people on purpose again eh?

 

[Red Light]

One area that needs perhaps to be reconsidered is night-time lorry bans. I know that it wouldn't work for building sites, but many businesses could be restocked during the night. It could take a lot of trucks off the road at a time when they are at their busiest.

A lorry ban like Dublin's would be good. There you need a permit to take a lorry into the city between 7am and 7pm. Boris did say he was going to ban lorries from London but nothing seems to have happened since he said it.

 

[Red Light]

There is always going to be some bad drivers out there, be it in wagons ,cars ,trucks, or even bikes. And I seriously think most drivers of any vehicle especially HGV's are very aware of vulnerable road users, accidents happen. People need to be educated in how to deal with HGV's and other large vehicles, You dont need a witch hunt.

You do when their kill rate is 50 times higher than other vehicles. If HGVs were 1% of the vehicles on the road and 1% of the fatalities I would agree with you but when they are 1% of the vehicles and 33% of the fatalities I'm not prepared to forgive them as victims of circumstances. Bus drivers, even the very unwieldy bendy bus drivers don't come any where near the kill rate of HGV and lorry drivers. Something is wrong with the way lorries and HGVs are driven period and I experience it all the time when cycling in London.

 

[Red Light]

[QUOTE 1632755, member: 3143"]Thank you for proving my point above.[/quote]

So how do you educate and train cyclists to not be hit by drunk truck drivers on their mobile phones or ones who are trying to read their pay slips while driving or have wired their truck doors closed with a wire coat hanger other than by telling them to stay off the roads?

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

TfL = Traffic flow Lunacy.

Any system that tries to solve a problem (eg congestion) by endangering those who contribute least to the problem (cyclists) is clearly lunatic. Or criminal. The jury's out on that one.