A tip for language learners

[glasgowcyclist]

A question for speakers and thinkers of more than one language:

Do you think very slightly different thoughts in each language? In other words does the language and associated culture change your thoughts?

I know it does with me.

I was open to the idea that this might occur, indeed I feel it does with me, but I have read of studies which show that not to be the case at all. Sorry, can’t remember the source to give you a reference.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Are you you in another language?

I think I’m still me but I am definitely more able to directly disagree with someone in Italian than in English.

Or perhaps more accurately, I am less able to express a contrary view in Italian with the same diplomacy and range of language as I can in English.

 

[All uphill]

I think I’m still me but I am definitely more able to directly disagree with someone in Italian than in English.

Or perhaps more accurately, I am less able to express a contrary view in Italian with the same diplomacy and range of language as I can in English.

I think that's it for me; I quickly tune into the culture and my behaviour is modified. I am more direct in Dutch because I don't have the skill to be subtle and, in my experience, Dutch culture values a higher degree of directness and genuinely than us south of englanders.

 

[yello]

I'm certainly less able to be subtle, nuanced and sensitive in French - but that's obviously due to my language limitations, vocab etc. I sometimes only know one way of saying something. I'd imagine that can give a false impression of who I am, but I am still the same person - just one with limited language skills!

As to whether I modify by behaviour, that's a tough one. At surface level, it's true enough to say that I do do more shrugging, pff'ing and pouting in French than I would in English - but I'd call that a kind of accommodation, which is natural enough. I've not changed at such. Obviously I notice aspects of French culture and values that are foreign to me but I can't say I ever embrace them, even though I am aware of them and respect them. So, surface level changes and awareness of difference? Yes, absolutely. Not sure about anything more profound or lasting though.

 

[nickyboy]

I'd a similar experience many years ago in a remote French village. We'd hired a gîte for a week so were way out in the countryside and I cycled the 5km to the village shop for some basics; mustard, pepper, cheese, bread, and some matches for the gas cooker. With very rusty school French I politely asked for the items and the lovely lady fetched them one by one as I fumbled for the right words.

Unfortunately I didn't know the French for matches so, drawing a blank look from trying to explain in English, I resorted to miming. I pretended to light a cigarette, then a pipe, then the fuse for a bomb. I mimed the match burning all the way down to my fingers and then burning me like some rubbish slapstick routine.

Nothing.

I resigned myself to not getting them and said "Merci, c'est touts."

Then she smiled and stood aside, pointed at the shelf that had been hidden by her sizeable derrière, saying, "Don't you want these?"
Not only did she speak perfect English, she was hiding the bloody matches!

I said yes, please.

"Ah non, en français monsieur: ALLUMETTES."

And she would not give them to me until I had pronounced the word to her satisfaction.

It was a wonderful little episode in a fabulous holiday and I loved that she did it.

This is an interesting lesson in how application of pressure forces learning. I presume you will never forget the French word for matches for the rest of your life

Similarly, I managed to get up to conversational level in Chinese quite a while ago. But this was only achieved by forcing myself to engage in social situations with locals rather than hide in my hotel room. Making conversation and small talk on buses, buying things in shops etc etc. Sadly I no longer have the opportunity to practice so my level has diminished somewhat. But I can still make myself understood, even though it must be 10 years since I was in Mainland China thanks to the application of pressure as you experienced

 

[glasgowcyclist]

This is an interesting lesson in how application of pressure forces learning.

On the same holiday I went to the butcher to get some bacon for breakfast. I realised I didn't know the French word for bacon so asked for "jambon... mais pour le petit dejeuner". 🤦‍♂️

"Ah oui, bacon", he replied. I felt a right chump!

I knew 500g was a demi kilo so, wanting only 250g, I asked for a "demi-demi kilo". He just rolled his eyes and said "Deux cent cinquante grammes?"

So I agree with you, that it's little encounters like these that cement words or phrases in your mind.

 

[All uphill]

Somethings I struggle with now as much as twenty years ago.

Half vijf ( half five) is half past four.

Tien over half vijf ( ten over half five) is four-forty

 

[yello]

So I agree with you, that it's little encounters like these that cement words or phrases in your mind.

I'd agree too. It's the theory to practice phase I suppose.

What continues to freak me is when you overhear some conversation and understand it (which, in itself is amazing!) but you realise they're actually talking about quite ordinary stuff. You know, like what you'd say in English!

I went for quite a while (and still do to a lesser extent) thinking French was akin to something like magic words. That is, I didn't really understand the words I was saying, I knew what they meant in theory but had little evidence of it so was uncertain.... but, low and behold, they'd result in the desired outcome (sometimes anyway!) For example, you'd go into a cafe and say in your bestest French 'bonjour, Je voudrais un café, s'il vous plaît'... they'd say nothing, turn to the machine and do their thing, then turn back to you and place a cup of coffee on the bar. Magic words! Abracadabra and a coffee arrives! After a while, the words start to mean something to you and you begin trust them.

I'm reminded of that Monty Python sketch where someone was publishing joke/false language books - and you had these Hungarians wondering around Britain saying things like 'my hovercraft is full of eels'

 

[Rusty Nails]

Unless you are trying to communicate with a Glaswegian. Or worse, an Aberdonian. It's hard enough to understand them when you supposedly speak the same language!

Many years ago I once spent an evening in a pub in Lesmahagow, not far from Glasgow, after my camper van caught fire at a petrol station in the town and we were stranded for the night.

Great night, but couldn't understand what the locals were talking about....although it could have been the alcohol.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

although it could have been the alcohol.

Yours or theirs?

 

[matticus]

- That bloke says his camper van caught fire in Lesmahagow, and needs somewhere to stay.
- Are you sure?? He's got a funny accent, and I think you've had more than a few wee drams, Hamish!

 

[swee'pea99]

Dutch culture values a higher degree of directness and genuinely than us south of englanders.

Friends of friends asked visiting friends from Germany what they thought of their recently decorated living room. Unfortunately they told them.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Yours or theirs?

Both

 

[glasgowcyclist]

I watched the first episode of Gino D'Acampo's new food programme the other night where he takes his sons around Italy and in one of the 'still to come' clips learned that neither of his sons speaks Italian! I'm rather shocked by that.

 

[nickyboy]

On the same holiday I went to the butcher to get some bacon for breakfast. I realised I didn't know the French word for bacon so asked for "jambon... mais pour le petit dejeuner". 🤦‍♂️

"Ah oui, bacon", he replied. I felt a right chump!

I knew 500g was a demi kilo so, wanting only 250g, I asked for a "demi-demi kilo". He just rolled his eyes and said "Deux cent cinquante grammes?"

So I agree with you, that it's little encounters like these that cement words or phrases in your mind.

It's funny how you can usually dredge up something from your vocabulary to get the point across, even if you don't know the correct word.

In China, if I was required to ask for 250g of something I guess I would have to say "yi ban jin" which is also "one half of half a kilo" and also almost certainly wrong, but at least comprehensible