A sense of proportion

[Ajax Bay]

Great thread on exactly this here: https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=157090
In that case the RLJ (super slow/empty road, ack at fault) may have received a FPN relating to driving a motor vehicle, with a bigger fine and points:
https://offencecode.uk/offence/drive-on ... ht-signal/
when they should have received a FPN of a fine of £50 and no penalty points:
https://offencecode.uk/offence/ride-a-p ... ffic-sign/
The chap in the list of convictions reported in the OP chose to go to court (or chose not to respond to the FPN).

 

[mjr]

But surely the whole issue here is that there is no system in law for awarding points to a cyclist?

I believe there is now a system in law for awarding points to any driver for almost anything but it is very rarely used and all cases of attempting to award points to a cyclist described online so far have been administrative errors by police who more often penalise motorists who are, after all, a far bigger danger on our roads.

 

[Beebo]

I sounds bonkers.
Could you be awarded 3 points for an offence committed on a road as a pedestrian?

 

[Ajax Bay]

I believe there is now a system in law for awarding points to any driver for almost anything but it is very rarely used and all cases of attempting to award points to a cyclist described online so far have been administrative errors by police . . .

From my reading of the advice on the link I shared, the law allows a cyclist with a motor vehicle driving licence to be penalised by being banned, but there is no mechanism in law for points to be awarded as a penalty.

CyclingUK: ". . . the court does have a general power under the Power of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 to disqualify anyone from driving, without imposing penalty points, for any offence, including a cycling offence."
"The courts would need to have a ‘sufficient reason’ for the disqualification"
But there is no provision for 'penalty points' to be awarded to riders of non-motorised vehicles under that act
See this link too: https://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default/files/documents/magazine/pdf/cuk201901055.pdf
Think EAPC and vehicles with power assist are deemed 'motorised' so riders of those (and scooters) are liable to have points awarded as a penalty.

 

[Ajax Bay]

I sounds bonkers.
Could you be awarded 3 points for an offence committed on a road as a pedestrian?

I think not (points) but one could (in theory) be disqualified from driving iaw
. . . . "a general power under the Power of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 to disqualify anyone from driving, without imposing penalty points, for any offence, including a cycling offence."
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/17/section/163
Section 163 Driving disqualification: availability for any offence . . . the court may make a driving disqualification order whether or not it also deals with the offender for the offence in any other way.

 

[Supersuperleeds]

Erik Ten Hag would like to know the exact location of the lights and can a local lend him a bike, as he is desperate for three points.

 

[Drago]

I believe there is now a system in law for awarding points to any driver for almost anything but it is very rarely used and all cases of attempting to award points to a cyclist described online so far have been administrative errors by police who more often penalise motorists who are, after all, a far bigger danger on our roads.

This. The dibble have simply clicked the wrong offence code when pulling down the menu on NICHE to build the charge. Most magistrates aren't legally trained and clerks, who often are legally trained to some degree, probably wouldn't even notice a single integer difference in a 6 digit alphanumeric offence code.

 

[tom73]

Not a legal expert but have some working knowledge. Obviously a similar situation crops up when people get caught driving cars or other motor vehicles when they do not have a driving licence. In that case, the DVLA will create a driving record for them using their full name and date of birth to create a driver number. The points (or disqualification) will be recorded under that driver number, just the same way as it would if they had a proper licence. Presumably they will do the same for any cyclist who claims not to have a licence. Obviously points are of no consequence to the cyclist who never intends to drive, as a driving ban would be meaningless (and as yet there is no real practical way to enforce a cycling ban). The problem arises if they ever DO want to get a licence.

Thanks how it’s worked when I’ve worked on cases involving Young offenders and driving related offences.

 

[icowden]

Additionally you can't really compare the fines for different offences as the fine will be determined by the Magistrate who will take into account the circumstances of the offender. There is no point fining someone £1000 if they have no prospect of every paying it. Equally if you earn £200,000 a year, a £100 fine isn't going to be meaningful.

I think @Drago is right and the cyclist has been issued with a fixed penalty notice of £100 + 3 points which is for motorists instead of the £50 fixed penalty for cyclists. He has then appealed and the Magistrates have upped the fine for wasting their time.

As for the "stuffy old farts" mentioned by @numbnuts this was in a Magistrates Court. Anyone can be a magistrate and no legal training is required. Legal advice is available to the magistrates, as is guidance.

 

[Ajax Bay]

Although tbf, we do not know whether an FPN was issued in this instance (conviction list as reported in the local paper), and whether it was 'wrong'. Going to court is not "an appeal" but a fine more than the amount specified in the FPN is a risk / very likely (though wasting time should not be the reason). Costs/surcharge will be incurred/applied which is not a 'fine' (IANAL).
What research seems to suggest is that the magistrates have no power to include a 'points on a driving licence' penalty for the reported offence (RLJ):
"rider of a bicycle who failed to comply with a red light traffic signal"
And if this bloke appealed the sentence, the points bit would be rescinded. Whether worth it would likely depend on whether he is insuring a car or not, or plans to in the next few years.

 

[Ajax Bay]

Erik Ten Hag would like to know the exact location of the lights and can a local lend him a bike, as he is desperate for three points.

Rather more critically, there are thousands frequenters of the 'City Ground' who would also appreciate three points very soon as they failed to overturn an arbitrary penalty of 4 points.
Meadow Lane schadenfreude?

 

[mustang1]

Seems really weird to have magistrates who aren't legally trained.

 

[Drago]

Seems really weird to have magistrates who aren't legally trained.

Mosr are simply volunteers and they get very little law training. It's the clerks job to advise them re charges, sentencing, process, etc, and a lot of those aren't formally trained (I know one who's hobby is criminal law, completely self trained, never had a single days law training.)

Stipendiary Magistrates are paid and have a few weeks training in law and sentencing, which is ongoing throughout their careers, but there aren't many of them about. The king pin of the volume criminal justice system are volunteers, who get paid only expenses and receive little actual training. Theirs is to decide on guilt, and they are guided by the clerk as to the appropriateness or the charge, sentencing options and guidelines, etc.

 

[rydabent]

Tell me about it. Woman kills a motorcyclist when driving on the wrong side of the road, 12 months ban. Man says nasty things to a celebrity, five years prison.

Im beginning to think you people in jolly old England have really insane laws and fines!!! Five years in prison for saying something?????????

 

[Ajax Bay]

Five years in prison for saying something?????????

Are you familiar with the circumstances of the case?