20mph - latest thoughts?

[martint235]

Those two things don't go together.

I had a discussion with other CC members lately where we agreed it's not what it was. There was a time where in P+L you expected this, it now permeates the entire forum.

I will of course submit myself to the jury, I think it's Smeggers, as to whether this would constitute a flounce but I just feel there is a sense of "I'm a cyclist, no sorry I ride a bike therefore I'm special"

 

[smutchin]

I just feel there is a sense of "I'm a cyclist, no sorry I ride a bike therefore I'm special"

You see a cyclist and a motorist as both belonging to the same class of 'road user'. I see a 'bike' and a 'car' as being two separate classes in their own right, and therefore it's right that they should be governed by separate laws.

That's a fairly fundamental difference of opinion and neither of us is going to change the other's mind, but there's no need to fall out over it or start calling people stupid because they disagree with you.

 

[martint235]

You see a cyclist and a motorist as both belonging to the same class of 'road user'. I see a 'bike' and a 'car' as being two separate classes in their own right, and therefore it's right that they should be governed by separate laws.

That's a fairly fundamental difference of opinion and neither of us is going to change the other's mind, but there's no need to fall out over it or start calling people stupid because they disagree with you.

Motorists, cyclists, pedestrians are all road users. I agree that if you are unwilling to accept your place in that group we will never agree

 

[smutchin]

whilst I'm currently not included in the law, I will continue to go quicker.

in a 20 zone there is no real need for a cyclist to be going quicker

in a 20 when I'm doing 25

20mph limits are usually there for a specific reason: school nearby; small village; parking interfering with lines of sight. In these instances driving above 20 is driving at an inappropriate speed

Is there a sound moral imperative for cyclists to observe motoring speed limits?

If so, your behaviour is immoral.

If not, your proposal is redundant.

 

[mustang1]

One council, I forget which, was in the news in Monday because they're abolishing theirs. Traffic surveys had shown less than a 1MPH drop in average speed over the previous 30MPH limit.

That being the case I'm all in favour only if they're rigourously enforced.

The thing is with a 20mph limit, the drivers stayed under 30mph. But with the 20mph limit abolished, drivers will have the will to drive closer to 35-40mph. That will be a shame.

When I'm in a 20 zone and obeying the legal speed range (while in car), i still get drivers tailgating me urging me to speed up. But i get the same in 30mph zones too.

I don't relent though and instead slow down because I'll need more time to stop so they don't plough in to me.

 

[mustang1]

I noticed also when a car driver is stuck behind another car (eg drivers looking for parking spaces during the school drop off), they don't seem to mind too much. But when they are stuck behind a cyclist (eg me going up a hill at 15mph with nothing in front of me), the drivers behind me get rather impatient.

When space permits, i move over. But until then I'm afraid they will remain "stuck".

The ironic thing is that cars stop them, they are at a standstill. But when they are behind me, at least they are moving!

 

[martint235]

Ok one last go. Conor McGregor, Devon Toner, Jimmy Krankie and Stephen Hawking are going down the street. Do the physical violence laws apply differently to these people? Why not? Should all go smoothly, there is no incident. However when the assault law is broken, they bring significantly different levels of risk and danger.

The law should be as black and white as you can make it. The grey area comes between verdict and sentencing.

Did you hit the man? Yes. Guilty. No ifs no buts. Now circumstances:

• Me and the lads had had a cracking night out then this geezer looked at ma bird funny so I lamped him then put the boot in for a bit. 5 years in prison.
• He's been abusing me for 10 years, on this occasion I thought he was going to kill me so I hit him with a chair and ran. 1 year suspended sentence and get the victim somewhere safe.

Were you doing more than 20mph in a 20 zone? Yes. Guilty. No ifs no buts. Circumstances:

• I was watching this funny kitten on my phone, I didn't even look at my speedo until I heard the screaming. Lifetime ban from driving and 7 years in prison.
• My wife was in labour, it was 3am and there was no one around. I didn't hit anyone. 2 points on your license, £60 fine and congratulations on your baby daughter.
• I was on my pushbike and was trying to maintain 25mph for half a mile and I did it. Well done son, next time practice in a 40 zone, £30 fine.

There was no response to this obvious stupidity

 

[martint235]

Is there a sound moral imperative for cyclists to observe motoring speed limits?

If so, your behaviour is immoral.

If not, your proposal is redundant.

No there's a sound practical one. Let's make it a sound legal one,.

If a cyclist hits a child at 25 mph will the child get hurt? If said cyclist hits at 20 is there a likelihood the pain will be less?

These are the questions. Not if a car hits it will hurt more. So two questions , two yes or no. Simple

 

[martint235]

I am very far from unwilling to accept my place in that group. If anything, it is motorists who would seek to deny me a place.

On what grounds? I have fewer negative situations with motorists these days, what's your commute like?

 

[martint235]

Last Friday night i saw a bus driver use his vehicle to push one of out friends off the road. This is a direct consequence of building cyclist facilities, we are then viewed as not belonging on the road.

I wasn't there. But I've always been against segregation for this reason. We are road users. We have the same rights, we obey the same laws

Other nations, and I'm not talking Dutch, seem to be able to occupy the same road space without issue. France, where an HGV driver will push himself down the narrowest street to avoid la peage, still give cyclists way more space. Is it narrow roads, no. Is it attitude, probably. Are we going to change that attitude by being "special"?

 

[classic33]

Last Friday night i saw a bus driver use his vehicle to push one of our friends off the road. This is a direct consequence of building cyclist facilities, we are then viewed as not belonging on the road.

Which is one reason for staying on the roads.
Arriva?

 

[classic33]

Going off topic

I don't recall, sorry.

Their drivers seem to be doing similar, a lot of late round here.

 

[mjr]

If a cyclist hits a child at 25 mph will the child get hurt? If said cyclist hits at 20 is there a likelihood the pain will be less?

Nobody knows if the child will get hurt - we don't even have enough examples in the statistics for a good estimate of injury IIRC and even then, it's almost always slight.

Likelihood doesn't make sense in that context. I suspect you meant to ask if there's a probability and there always is, but we can't estimate what it is because of the same rarity as in the previous question.

So, again, what's the positive argument for this law change that would probably save no lives and could cost a few by tying up legislators?

 

[classic33]

Nobody knows if the child will get hurt - we don't even have enough examples in the statistics for a good estimate of injury IIRC and even then, it's almost always slight.

Likelihood doesn't make sense in that context. I suspect you meant to ask if there's a probability and there always is, but we can't estimate what it is because of the same rarity as in the previous question.

So, again, what's the positive argument for this law change that would probably save no lives and could cost a few by tying up legislators?

Try this one.
Get a 14lb sledge hammer lift until the head is level with your waist, then let it drop onto your unprotected foot. Will there be any injury? Hammer head won't be moving that fast from such a low height..

We don't have enough examples of this being done.

 

[mjr]

Try this one.
Get a 14lb sledge hammer lift until the head is level with your waist, then let it drop onto your unprotected foot. Will there be any injury? Hammer head won't be moving that fast from such a low height..

We don't have enough examples of this being done.

There are plenty more examples of similar incidents to that in the Hospital Episode Statistics than of people cycling at speed into children, plus you've constrained the variables far more. Why argue that a speed limit on cycling should only happen once we've put a speed limit on the more reliably injurious hammers?