11 speed vs 10 speed..

[Yellow Saddle]

So not based on any fact or on usage of said 11 speed groupsets?

This open and honest review says it all, particularly the Summary after each mini review of components:

http://road.cc/content/review/133585-shimano-105-5800-11-speed-groupset

I read the review and see nothing there that would contradict what @Appolonius said. Basically, those two overviews are expansive press releases with an odd comment thrown in. The one or two value judgments in there are meaningless, particularly the 10% quote on brake improvement. The only time the "reviewer" mentions the chain is to say something to the effect of "the XYZ coating seems so far to resist the build-up of dirt and water" This is of course utter nonsense.

We have to consider the fact that there is a difference in the thickness of sprockets as the number of sprockets increase. This is because the available space for the sprockets has remained the same ever since 8-speed. From 8-10, sprocket width decreased. 11-speed is not much thinner (depending on the brand) but closer spaced so that the chain has to be narrower. Width is a factor of sprocket wear. However, 11-speed may well be as good as 10 because the rider may spread the usage of sprockets over more sprockets and hence dilute wear over a wider range of sprockets.

 

[bpsmith]

I read the review and see nothing there that would contradict what @Appolonius said. Basically, those two overviews are expansive press releases with an odd comment thrown in. The one or two value judgments in there are meaningless, particularly the 10% quote on brake improvement. The only time the "reviewer" mentions the chain is to say something to the effect of "the XYZ coating seems so far to resist the build-up of dirt and water" This is of course utter nonsense.

We have to consider the fact that there is a difference in the thickness of sprockets as the number of sprockets increase. This is because the available space for the sprockets has remained the same ever since 8-speed. From 8-10, sprocket width decreased. 11-speed is not much thinner (depending on the brand) but closer spaced so that the chain has to thinner. Width is a factor of sprocket wear. However, 11-speed may well be as good as 10 because the rider may spread the usage of sprockets over more sprockets and hence dilute wear over a wider range of sprockets.

I really struggled to find Any info on 11 speed being "flimsier" than 10 speed kit. The post stated that about 11 speed stuff in general, hence my reply covering the groupset. I really did search around for both sides of opinions, but failed miserably. This suggests such flimsiness is just their own opinion, rather than based on any real factor experience. Considering they don't ride 11 speed, this is worthless?

I have no vested interest, as have both 10 and 11 speed in my stable. My own experience is that the quality of shifting is much better on my Ultegra 6800 than my 105 5700. This is, of course, an unfair comparison but is actually based on something real.

I sure that 5800 will compare far better to 6800, with the trickle down coming into play, but this is then a 105 vs Ultegra debate.

Durability, I can't comment too much on, as not done huge miles yet in fairness.

 

[Nigelnaturist]

No offence to the lower end groupsets, we've all been there I started with a single chainring and a5sp freewheel but if you move up to Ultegra I don't think you'll notice the 2 tooth move. also if you want to go to ultegra they don't do a triple chainset...Sorry, consult shimano....

Yea I know they don't as they dont from the new 105, however its about the gap in the gear inch that i notice not the smoothness. On my 38x17 its 59.2" 38x19 is 53" this might explain it better

My current set up, and what I plan,

There isn't much I can do about the 19-21 I just find that gap quite large between 17-19 its not about the movement of the kit it is 105 after all, and front shifts a dream, so I have no intent on changing that.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

I really struggled to find Any info on 11 speed being "flimsier" than 10 speed kit. The post stated that about 11 speed stuff in general, hence my reply covering the groupset. I really did search around for both sides of opinions, but failed miserably. This suggests such flimsiness is just their own opinion, rather than based on any real factor experience. Considering they don't ride 11 speed, this is worthless?

I have no vested interest, as have both 10 and 11 speed in my stable. My own experience is that the quality of shifting is much better on my Ultegra 6800 than my 105 5700. This is, of course, an unfair comparison but is actually based on something real.

I sure that 5800 will compare far better to 6800, with the trickle down coming into play, but this is then a 105 vs Ultegra debate.

Durability, I can't comment too much on, as not done huge miles yet in fairness.

I don't think you'll find any real data anywhere. That's why I resort to engineering principles, which has it that narrower is less, in terms of durability and all else being equal.
I didn't mention this before, but the PTFE coating won't add to durability, no matter what Shimano claims. PTFE in a friction scenario with grit is so short-lived that I think the move to even mention it is cynical. PTFE is the stuff they use to coat frying pans.

The narrower 11-speed chain is achieved not by making the side plates thinner but by super-recessing the rivets. As I said, the sprockets of 10 and 11 are the same thickness. That's why durability is a bit of a muddle and groupset companies play that fiddle very well. They won't give clarity because the overall picture is not getting better.

 

[bpsmith]

I don't think you'll find any real data anywhere. That's why I resort to engineering principles, which has it that narrower is less, in terms of durability and all else being equal.
I didn't mention this before, but the PTFE coating won't add to durability, no matter what Shimano claims. PTFE in a friction scenario with grit is so short-lived that I think the move to even mention it is cynical. PTFE is the stuff they use to coat frying pans.

The narrower 11-speed chain is achieved not by making the side plates thinner but by super-recessing the rivets. As I said, the sprockets of 10 and 11 are the same thickness. That's why durability is a bit of a muddle and groupset companies well that fiddle very well. They won't give clarity because the overall picture is not getting better.

Don't disagree on the coating. That never figured in my mind tbh.

I do disagree with people saying the equipment is flimsier though. Especially when it's based on somebody's random gut feeling. Not aiming specifically at you btw.

If this was a problem, I am Certain that the Internet, and forums such as these, would be awash with examples!

Clearly that's not the case, so scaremongering is not required.

 

[shadow master]

11 speed and triple!........yuk! Time to man up and pedal the bloody thing

 

[Nigelnaturist]

11 speed and triple!........yuk! Time to man up and pedal the bloody thing

Whats wrong with it, in my opinion its compacts that are an abomination of engineering, you are either to one of end or the other of the cassette, so this induces excessive wear, I ride almost exclusively on the 38th ring in the 15-19 range on the back, most climbing round here is on less than a 38x25 gear, but that doesn't mean i don't use the 26th ring for hills with better options than big 3 or 4th gaps in the rear cassette, I have options to gear it from 26 to 30th on the inner 38-42 on the middle and 50-52 on the outer, a much wider choice of cassette ratios than having to have a 30 or 32th for the tougher hills (not that there are any here), as for manning up up, i ride in all weathers (think thats a bit more about manning up than pushing a big gear up a hill), in the right gear I can spin up hills (depending on hill excreta ) at up to 100rpm and quite capable of 800-1,000 miles a month after month after month. That enough pedalling for you.

 

[Nigelnaturist]

Whats more and this is only with a pinch of salt as I am not one to go out for p.b.'s but I can compete with people on bikes costing 10x the original price of my Viking.

 

[JMAG]

There isn't much I can do about the 19-21 I just find that gap quite large between 17-19

I have found a similar issue with my 8 speed 11-32 where it jumps from 15 to 18. My current cassette is 11-13-15-18-21-24-28-32 and I am looking at an 11-30 (11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30) or maybe even 11-28 (11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28) if I decide to man up and dispense with a granny gear

I can compete with people on bikes costing 10x the original price of my Viking.

I have a Trek 7.2 FX Disc and an old Raleigh Pioneer which has a top bar mounted childs saddle to take my 4 year old son out for the odd excursion. Being as I am looking to change the rear cassette on the Trek and the Raleigh could do with a new chain, sprocket and chainset - I'm now thinking about upgrading the groupset on the Trek and using the Trek parts on the Raleigh. Seeing as you have been through just about every level with your Viking, what would you recommend for an average Joe? I commute 6 miles each way at a "leisurely" pace of around 14 mph, which leaves me sweating and out of breath.

 

[Nigelnaturist]

@JMAG I personally don't agree with the term granny gear, just the correct gear for the conditions, I can gear my triple to have a higher low gear than many on a compact seek, and take not of that, why are people seeking to put lower rear gears on, simple because the setup is wrong, and the term man-up....
This man enough

Rant over, back to the question, 15-18 is a really big jump on my 38th it would be a massive 11" no wonder you feel it, the change between 17-19 is 5.9".
Make sure the Raleigh can take cassettes if you haven't already, I take it both are flat bars, I don't know much about flat bar shifters, but it will be easier than road bikes as I believe you only need to change the shifter (but I might be wrong), it depends how many gears you want.

I ran a Sora 26/38/48 with a 13-24 cassette when I first started this I think it ran 12/13/15/17/19/21/24 (something I made up) this gave a range of 28.7-106" my current setup is 25.5-110", your current trek on my wheels 700x25c would be 23.2-115.6", with an 8sp cassette you could run a 12/13/15/17/19/21/27 with a 26/38/48 for a range of 25.5-106",

I personally wouldn't use an 11th cassette to me in most cases its just to high a gear to push, so simple by moving that gear to the other end you get a much closer cassette and changing your inner ring to 26 (£10+pp from spacycles) instead of 28th you get the low gearing, go up a gear or two on the rear and make it the same as I currently have 12/13/14/15/16/17/19/21/24/27 same range more options, though the only cassette I know (probably more) with that range is the 105 12-27 about £22,
The RD you may need to upgrade to an Alivio or road RD's would work, Tiagra
I know my 7sp Sora did up to 9sp, its about how much travel they have and if they can cope with larger rear cogs, another reason triples win as you have smaller rear cogs.

Scratch that, you will need a new chain set to do that, but you can get one form spa with a 28/38/48 rings for about £35 or make up your own like I did with there own chainset about £65 but free PP, though you would then need to change the bb in all likelyhood, yep in both cases, yours is 122.5mm the first is 110mm and second one is 113mm this is the spindle length, easy job but tools needed if not already got.

If this doesn't make sense ask me again in the morning.

 

[JMAG]

If this doesn't make sense ask me again in the morning.

Perfect sense thank you Nigel. The granny gear comment was tongue in cheek.

My RD is Alivio so I could maybe fit a 9 speed cassette and change the rear shifter.

My chainrings are indeed riveted so no tweaks available there. Before changing too much, I may stick with just trying out an 11-28 8 speed or possibly a 12-30 9 speed, if such a thing exists. Fortunately Ribble have an HG51-8 for just £10 so it won't hurt to try that first.

The Raleigh will have to wait for now.

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[Nigelnaturist]

Perfect sense thank you Nigel. The granny gear comment was tongue in cheek.

My RD is Alivio so I could maybe fit a 9 speed cassette and change the rear shifter.

My chainrings are indeed riveted so no tweaks available there. Before changing too much, I may stick with just trying out an 11-28 8 speed or possibly a 12-30 9 speed, if such a thing exists. Fortunately Ribble have an HG51-8 for just £10 so it won't hurt to try that first.

The Raleigh will have to wait for now.

Thanks for your feedback.

phew, I was a bit tired, the crank I told you about at £35 or so isn't bad I have one, and then 10 to change the inner if needed, plus bb ect....
I know it was tongue in cheek, its just others that should know better use and it can make people feel a bit like they shouldn't use the low gears unless really needed or get told "to man/woman up", I can spin up some hills at up to 100rpm or get out of the saddle and use a higher gear, gear depends on the climb, but that could be on my 38x24 or 26x16 (roughly the same gear), on the 26th ring I have many more options. The low gear really depends your terrain if its hilly you will need a lower gear, around here its not hilly, but there are a couple of short up to a mile of up to 15% hills (most no more than 8-10% though) so I can get away with higher gears.

 

[JMAG]

I understand. My commute is fairly flat and the steepest incline I've encountered locally thus far (outside my commute) is 9.7% which I managed ok on 28/28t.

I will keep that crankset in mind should I go down that route later on.