Zwift Chat

[Whorty]

Thought I’d ask and see if anyone who hasn’t ridden a WTRL Team Time Trial fancies guesting in our WTRL team at 18.00 this Thursday. We’re a bit short on numbers this week due to people riding........... outdoors! What’s all that about?

Really suits A or B level riders, although a strong C may be ok. It’s 2 laps of the Richmond UCI reverse so it starts with a series of lumps, although you do get to ride down Libby Hill!

Let me know if anyone fancies a ride.

Not me, sorry. None work day so I'll try to ride during the day which makes feeding Rach in the evening a bit less stressful

 

[Whorty]

I think I'll do the ITT next week. Should be a good chance to see where my FTP is

Same here, the iTT at least takes the Sandbaggers out the equation (although it does mean I can't wheel suck the stronger riders )

 

[Brendan Parker]

I just kept repeating their names in the chat to try and shame them but didn't work

You certainly didn’t hold back mate, did make me laugh. 👍🏼

 

[BurningLegs]

Yeah, I'm with you on the points system ... much preferred the DBR where top 30 (or was it 60?) scored and therefore it was worth pushing to the end as every position counted. Also means the primes on the IRL league play a much bigger role - go for a sprint and win, then role in last, and you will place better than most of the top 10 who complete the race 10 minutes ahead

I prefer the IRL way - I think it is closer to real life, where you can have groups with different objectives within the race which can make for exciting racing. Do you need to follow the sprint, or not? Should I go all out for the double points sprint and roll to the finish or target the finish?

I think adding the primes and only top 10 scoring makes it more exciting, and introduces new tactics. The other way just means everyone has the same objective so the racing isn't as exciting in my opinion

 

[Spartak]

Same here, the iTT at least takes the Sandbaggers out the equation (although it does mean I can't wheel suck the stronger riders )

My preferred discipline, although I'll probably still be the Lanterne Rouge... 🤣

 

[steverob]

If you're on about scoring systems, then my preference is somewhere between the IRL and DBR formats.

Having points go down to 30th place (or further) is a big incentive to those still racing once you've been dropped by the lead groups, so I liked that part of the DBR setup; but if you were lucky enough to stay with the front group (or the sandbaggers) then I'd want bigger point gaps between places at the top end - maybe not quite as large as IRL does, but still like 50,45,42,40, then down to 1 point per place from there. The DBR league having 60 for the winner, then 59 for 2nd, didn't make sense to me - especially as they did 5,3,2,1 on the primes, so actually winning the final sprint was LESS valuable (in terms of point differential) than any of the previous ones.

Also, not choosing to have EVERY sprint/KOM as a prime, or having certain ones as double points like IRL does makes things more interesting. If you score every prime banner on a crit-style course, then you can end up with a situation where riders have built up more points from winning those than you can get at the finish line. The opposite case is when on a course without many banners at all, you're essentially getting less points in the league series for taking part in that round. But the best reason to not give out points at every banner, is it gives an advantage to sad people like me who bother to read the race descriptions, who then know where to target their efforts!

 

[Joffey]

Yeah, I'm with you on the points system ... much preferred the DBR where top 30 (or was it 60?) scored and therefore it was worth pushing to the end as every position counted. Also means the primes on the IRL league play a much bigger role - go for a sprint and win, then role in last, and you will place better than most of the top 10 who complete the race 10 minutes ahead

Sandbaggers yesterday changed our race completely - the guy who won was clearly a string C, but he got away due to being able to sit on B wheels.

Also, when I made the break over the KoM, there was a B in the chasers who helped pull me back - now, the other 3 may well have caught me anyway, but it certainly didn't help me.

Like you, we called then out in the pen and quite a few times in the ride but they either don't read the comments or don't care. Not much more we can do though so I guess until Zwift decide it's important to them we suck it up

Sandbaggers ruined it for our race too. The lad who came 2nd on ZP to me effectively lost 7 mins to me because he wasn't able to stick with Cat C riders on the flat at the start of the race. Thankfully I could.

I text this to @Ketty after 7km - the race was already won bar a trainer issue.

There was another 5 riders in my group that were putting out 2.9wkg (so Cat C power) but these two on ZP should know better. McGill was riding for a mate of his not on ZP to help him get the win. A May, another Irish lad, won averaging 2.9. McGill put May up the road after the first climb and then left the race.

It helped me but it's not really fair on Frank who had a lonely ride from Volcano KOM to the finish. No wonder people in Cat D don't enter races when there is an influx of sandbaggers.

(EDIT - I suppose I could be a sandbagger myself but in this race I didn't hold back to reduce my wkg to keep me in D, I just rode to the race situation and ended up at 2.3wkg, well below Cat C - I'm not sure I am ready for Cat C really)

 

[bobinski]

Thought I’d ask and see if anyone who hasn’t ridden a WTRL Team Time Trial fancies guesting in our WTRL team at 18.00 this Thursday. We’re a bit short on numbers this week due to people riding........... outdoors! What’s all that about?

Really suits A or B level riders, although a strong C may be ok. It’s 2 laps of the Richmond UCI reverse so it starts with a series of lumps, although you do get to ride down Libby Hill!

Let me know if anyone fancies a ride.

Series of lumps! It’s the toughest course so far even for lighter peeps. No idea how we will keep our team together

 

[BurningLegs]

(EDIT - I suppose I could be a sandbagger myself but in this race I didn't hold back to reduce my wkg to keep me in D, I just rode to the race situation and ended up at 2.3wkg, well below Cat C - I'm not sure I am ready for Cat C really)

I don't think anyone ever feels ready to move up

Staying in a "comfortable" category is a good way to improve tactical awareness and learn how to surf wheels, but moving up a cat is a good way to improve power and performance (especially in the first month or two)!

 

[Joffey]

I don't think anyone ever feels ready to move up

Staying in a "comfortable" category is a good way to improve tactical awareness and learn how to surf wheels, but moving up a cat is a good way to improve power and performance (especially in the first month or two)!

I will move up to C, just another 3 good results in the IRL and then I'll take the plunge.

 

[Whorty]

Sandbaggers ruined it for our race too. The lad who came 2nd on ZP to me effectively lost 7 mins to me because he wasn't able to stick with Cat C riders on the flat at the start of the race. Thankfully I could.

I text this to @Ketty after 7km - the race was already won bar a trainer issue.

View attachment 538430

There was another 5 riders in my group that were putting out 2.9wkg (so Cat C power) but these two on ZP should know better. McGill was riding for a mate of his not on ZP to help him get the win. A May, another Irish lad, won averaging 2.9. McGill put May up the road after the first climb and then left the race.

It helped me but it's not really fair on Frank who had a lonely ride from Volcano KOM to the finish. No wonder people in Cat D don't enter races when there is an influx of sandbaggers.

(EDIT - I suppose I could be a sandbagger myself but in this race I didn't hold back to reduce my wkg to keep me in D, I just rode to the race situation and ended up at 2.3wkg, well below Cat C - I'm not sure I am ready for Cat C really)

I don't think you're a sandbagger - you're a top D correctly racing in D. If you went up to C you may start to push C numbers, but maybe not (I don't push B numbers in B, although I don't come last either as I use the race tactics I learnt whilst in C). What you won't do is win C (at least not initially!) but you might get more satisfaction compared to easily winning D as there are so few true D racing.

 

[Norry1]

You are whatever ZP says you are

 

[IrishAl]

Do you need to follow the sprint, or not? Should I go all out for the double points sprint and roll to the finish or target the finish?

This is what I like about it, but it relies to a degree on everyone knowing the prime positions and what’s on offer. If you do the research then you can find the info but it probably should be easier for people - and that’s partly down to us the race organiser, but also would be great for Zwift to do something in the pens at the start and maybe something will come of them taking over the running of Zwiftpower though I wouldn’t hold my breath.

Also riders just joining a race last minute don’t know the score so when a surge happens for a sprint banner some riders must be wondering that has just happened. 😃

 

[mjd1988]

If you're on about scoring systems, then my preference is somewhere between the IRL and DBR formats.

Having points go down to 30th place (or further) is a big incentive to those still racing once you've been dropped by the lead groups, so I liked that part of the DBR setup; but if you were lucky enough to stay with the front group (or the sandbaggers) then I'd want bigger point gaps between places at the top end - maybe not quite as large as IRL does, but still like 50,45,42,40, then down to 1 point per place from there. The DBR league having 60 for the winner, then 59 for 2nd, didn't make sense to me - especially as they did 5,3,2,1 on the primes, so actually winning the final sprint was LESS valuable (in terms of point differential) than any of the previous ones.

Also, not choosing to have EVERY sprint/KOM as a prime, or having certain ones as double points like IRL does makes things more interesting. If you score every prime banner on a crit-style course, then you can end up with a situation where riders have built up more points from winning those than you can get at the finish line. The opposite case is when on a course without many banners at all, you're essentially getting less points in the league series for taking part in that round. But the best reason to not give out points at every banner, is it gives an advantage to sad people like me who bother to read the race descriptions, who then know where to target their efforts!

Well put. There's a happy medium between the two.

 

[Brusgaard]

If you're on about scoring systems, then my preference is somewhere between the IRL and DBR formats.

Having points go down to 30th place (or further) is a big incentive to those still racing once you've been dropped by the lead groups, so I liked that part of the DBR setup; but if you were lucky enough to stay with the front group (or the sandbaggers) then I'd want bigger point gaps between places at the top end - maybe not quite as large as IRL does, but still like 50,45,42,40, then down to 1 point per place from there. The DBR league having 60 for the winner, then 59 for 2nd, didn't make sense to me - especially as they did 5,3,2,1 on the primes, so actually winning the final sprint was LESS valuable (in terms of point differential) than any of the previous ones.

Also, not choosing to have EVERY sprint/KOM as a prime, or having certain ones as double points like IRL does makes things more interesting. If you score every prime banner on a crit-style course, then you can end up with a situation where riders have built up more points from winning those than you can get at the finish line. The opposite case is when on a course without many banners at all, you're essentially getting less points in the league series for taking part in that round. But the best reason to not give out points at every banner, is it gives an advantage to sad people like me who bother to read the race descriptions, who then know where to target their efforts!

I'm all for a bigger gap between places, also at the top. BUT remember those at the top actually have a shot at gaining sprint/prime/KOM points. That means that the lighter riders in the front could go for KOMs and heavier rider for other primes. Us outside the front group/top DO NOT. Whether you want to go for those points is of course up to your individual power and tactics (burning of matches), but at least you have the option. However, you still have to stay with the front group after that to get high finishing points (in the races with finishing points for others than the top 10). So yes, you could end up with more points from sprinting/climbing in the "top-10 races", pretty much like the bonus seconds and points you get in real world races like TdF. But real world league (stage) races are based on your finish time - not on your placing on a particular stage (sans the bonus seconds). In TdF you can finish in a very big group of riders, and everyone gets the same finish time as the first of them to cross the line. On Zwift everyone will get a different time and thus placement/points.

Having a sprint on every lap makes it more interesting, as sometimes small groups form after a sprint, trying to break away from the bunch. Otherwise the front group would just stay together in one big pack lap after lap until the finish line, as seen in so many races.

In the IRL races, if you are dropped (i.e. not with the first 10-15 riders) early on, your race is done regarding points - sometimes within the first 5 minutes, and if not for the team competition, there is no incentive to finish, let alone race.
In the DBR / Feltet.dk leagues, points were given to the 60 (DBR) and 30 (Feltet.dk) first riders across the line, and the points were given regardless of how many riders finishing. In that way, you were rewarded for actually finishing (all) the races instead of just doing the ones which suited your taste/weight/fitness/whatever. That is one way to entice people to actually show up for the races - if they care about the team competition!

Like others have said, Zwift should really highlight the sprints in game better, so that people know they are coming. On BKOOL you can setup the race with points of interests etc. and name them "Sprint 1", "Sprint 2" etc. Then you get a popup saying how many meters until that POI, like the ones you get in Zwift when approaching the official sprints/KOMs. As it is now, people have to read AND understand the ZP/ZC description for a particular race. Judging from the posts here, it is often not very clear...