Worrying and a touch frightening

[Wookee]

Which police force do you work for?

Cyclist RTC's/RTA's are seldom investigated to the same level as those in which a motor vehicle is involved. Especially when it's the only vehicle involved.

The Met.

If a cycle is the only vehicle involved and the only person injured is the cyclist then what is it we should be investigating? As long as it isn't a fatality then something like that would probably only ever be self reported- if at all. If I came off my bike on the towpath because I misjudged something, what would I want the Police to do about it? Send me on a cycle proficiency course?

 

[Drago]

I am a Police officer in London. Part of my job is to look at fatal collisions and their contributory factors. I read the facts and not the assumptions, but am unable to say anything until any court or coroner's case is concluded. One from 2019.

I am a retired police officer, a Class 1 (showing my age), a collision investigator and a D. You preach about not wearing headphones, donning a lid and modelling a florrie, but there is little evidence that any of those factors have an impact for better or worse on either likelihood or outcomes. Strange behaviour for someone who claims to read facts.

For example, the DfT's own research shows little or no casualty reduction attributable to the wearing of fluorescent or hi vis garments, yet you would grimly stand in the corners court and testify the opposite. In the US the Department of Transport Agencies conducted research to support a potential ban on headphone wearing while cycling, and discovered that a car driver with their windows up experiences greater auditory exclusion than a cyclist in headphones, so inadvertently proved the legislation was unnecessary. And as for helmets...

And yes, there are individual pieces of cycling infrastructure that are marvellous. Nevertheless, the average is poor at best, and they remain statistically more dangerous than mixing it with traffic. I, as a skilled and internationally accredited cycle trainer to the emergency services, do not want to be segregated - I simply want road users to obey the law and act with diligence around every other road user. If people did that then the nation would not need to spend a single penny on cycling infrastructure.

 

[mjr]

If it's low it's going to be in drivers eyes and you need to increase your visibility

Indeed, which you do by increasing your contrast with the low sun, making yourself darker, not by putting lights on!

 

[classic33]

The Met.

If a cycle is the only vehicle involved and the only person injured is the cyclist then what is it we should be investigating? As long as it isn't a fatality then something like that would probably only ever be self reported- if at all. If I came off my bike on the towpath because I misjudged something, what would I want the Police to do about it? Send me on a cycle proficiency course?

The met employ two seperate companies to investigate serious/fatal collisions. Then pass their findings back. It's data collection by police officers, not investigation.

City of London employ one company.

If an RTC/RTA involved only one motor vehicle would you want the police to send the driver on learner driver lessons?

 

[Wookee]

I am a retired police officer, a Class 1 (showing my age), a collision investigator and a D. You preach about not wearing headphones, donning a lid and modelling a florrie, but there is little evidence that any of those factors have an impact for better or worse on either likelihood or outcomes. Strange behaviour for someone who claims to read facts.

For example, the DfT's own research shows little or no casualty reduction attributable to the wearing of fluorescent or hi vis garments, yet you would grimly stand in the corners court and testify the opposite. In the US the Department of Transport Agencies conducted research to support a potential ban on headphone wearing while cycling, and discovered that a car driver with their windows up experiences greater auditory exclusion than a cyclist in headphones, so inadvertently proved the legislation was unnecessary. And as for helmets...

And yes, there are individual pieces of cycling infrastructure that are marvellous. Nevertheless, the average is poor at best, and they remain statistically more dangerous than mixing it with traffic. I, as a skilled and internationally accredited cycle trainer to the emergency services, do not want to be segregated - I simply want road users to obey the law and act with diligence around every other road user. If people did that then the nation would not need to spend a single penny on cycling infrastructure.

I too am a Class 1, gained in 2002 so also showing my age. I am not an FCI and never have been, so I would not be testifying in coroner's court about anything to do with what a cyclist is wearing. The only testifying I do there is about road layout and design.

I said it is my choice to wear what I do based on what I have seen and read at work - I certainly didn't preach about it. You wear what you want when you ride it is your personal choice. I work in London where the collisions (certainly the serious ones) aren't the same as they are elsewhere in the country and we have a great deal more on urban roads where speeds are lower. A helmet isn't going to do me a great deal of good on a national speed limit, but it might reduce my injuries in a junction shunt on a 20mph road.

I am well aware that what we need here (in London at the very least) is the infrastructure of some of the European cities, but we haven't got that yet so it remains a balance that needs tipping the way of vulnerable road users. If you look at what the Dutch have done, they have removed/reduced conflict between motorists and vulnerable road users. So they rarely mix, and when they do it is in an environment that does not encourage speed. You also have to bear in mind that they have had a generation or 2 grow up in this environment so it is normal for them. Sadly this means that we are at least a generation away. Having said that though, our roads are statistically safer than Holland, Denmark and Germany for all road users. We only lag behind the Swiss and the Norwegians at the minute.

I'm not sure what infrastructure you refer to as being statistically worse than mixing with traffic? I did cite the Old Shoreham Road effort as being particularly poor, but I can't see how the Quietways would be worse? There are brand new cycling design standards due out very soon which will hopefully address some of the rubbish that is out there. It will be some time before we get the motorists to obey the law. In London we have stopped and reported more drivers for speed so far this year than we have in any other year...and we are not even 6 months into the year yet!

 

[Wookee]

The met employ two seperate companies to investigate serious/fatal collisions. Then pass their findings back. It's data collection by police officers, not investigation.

Sorry?? They are all done by our own staff. The only exception is some minor statement taking that is done by civilian investigators. All of the investigating officers and FCI's are Met police officers.

 

[Rusty Nails]

So anecdote from the limited data you will see. The published data says drivers are responsible about 70% of the time.

And irresponsible the other 30% of the time.

 

[Mike_P]

Indeed, which you do by increasing your contrast with the low sun, making yourself darker, not by putting lights on!

A flashing red will contrast against the sun.

 

[Archie_tect]

Indeed, which you do by increasing your contrast with the low sun, making yourself darker, not by putting lights on!

Doesn't make any difference what colour clothing you wear if silhouetted by a low sun... the flare of the low sun, particularly on a dirty or smeared windscreen makes it difficult if not impossible to see an obstacle ahead driving into a low sun, so a low set bright flashing red light would show up better than anything else.

 

[Drago]

And theres the evidence from Suzuki in the 80s about day time light light usage (ie, over bright lights, not dim drls) contributing to head on collisions as they break up the outline of the oncoming vehicle and deprive the observers brain of the necessary datum required to accurately judge its speed. Super bright red LED's will also do this. Once you know about this you can actually look out for it and will spot this phenomenon in action, and it'strue, you often cannot make out their outline and thus cannot judge their speed of advance or regression . Again, counter intuitive.

The bottom line is dont do anything in the name of safety unless it has been reasonably proven to work, as theres a good chance it will actually endanger you.

I dont see any evidence here of facts being read, but a lot of supposed "common sense" lore and widely held unsubstantiated opinion being regurgitated. Let's just hope this supposed investigator doesn't trot any of this "fact" out in front of a judge or a coroner.

 

[Mike_P]

Good point there by @Drago over some lights being too bright for the riders own good. Cycling along a well treed road on Monday I could see a cyclist coming the other way due to what appeared to be a flashing flood light on the front of the bike but as to how far away they actually were was impossible to judge.

 

[mjr]

A flashing red will contrast against the sun.

Not as much as black does and no bike light yet competes with the thousands of lux of the sun.

Do what you want, but please don't kid others that reduced contrast means increased visibility.

 

[Mike_P]

Not as much as black does and no bike light yet competes with the thousands of lux of the sun.

Do what you want, but please don't kid others that reduced contrast means increased visibility.

Fine so a silhouetted figure on a bike ahead with the sun nominally ahead going in and out of shadows as a road curves is not going to made clearer by a flashing red rear light then? Think we best agree to disagree but I certainly know when driving a car on that situation which cyclist I see earlier.

 

[mjr]

Fine so a silhouetted figure on a bike ahead with the sun nominally ahead going in and out of shadows as a road curves is not going to made clearer by a flashing red rear light then? Think we best agree to disagree but I certainly know when driving a car on that situation which cyclist I see earlier.

Nope, not clearer, but if you want to bet on more drivers having your eyesight than normal eyesight, knock yourself out with my blessing but please stop preaching your gospel of reduced contrast.

 

[Wookee]

And theres the evidence from Suzuki in the 80s about day time light light usage (ie, over bright lights, not dim drls) contributing to head on collisions as they break up the outline of the oncoming vehicle and deprive the observers brain of the necessary datum required to accurately judge its speed. Super bright red LED's will also do this. Once you know about this you can actually look out for it and will spot this phenomenon in action, and it'strue, you often cannot make out their outline and thus cannot judge their speed of advance or regression . Again, counter intuitive.

The bottom line is dont do anything in the name of safety unless it has been reasonably proven to work, as theres a good chance it will actually endanger you.

I dont see any evidence here of facts being read, but a lot of supposed "common sense" lore and widely held unsubstantiated opinion being regurgitated. Let's just hope this supposed investigator doesn't trot any of this "fact" out in front of a judge or a coroner.

You probably need to read my posts again, and not your opinion of my posts. I am not a forensic collision investigator nor did I at any point say it was a fact that wearing hi viz is something I think everyone should do.

What I said was my job is looking at road layouts and at fatal collisions. These two things are often combined. I choose to wear hi viz and a helmet, I do not say everyone should wear them, because it is YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE. I say that again, it is YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE.

I would never advocate that it be made law to wear either of these as we would end up in a situation that Australia found with no-one riding bikes. What we actually need is more people riding to force the highway authorities to make the changes needed.