White Working Class Britain

[snorri]

Paulus is right.
I blame it all on that whatsisname fellow that makes up words for songs that all have the same tune. Just encouraging the idle classes he is, PIA

Still, it turned out a nice day after the morning rain.

 

[Arch]

Paulus is quite right, it's a question of definition. I wonder (and the idea really has just wandered into my brain, so I'm probably wrong) if 'white working class' Britain these days actually means "that section of society who can't bear immigration and blame all their woes on it" rather than a whole economic group. As if perhaps, if you are a happy integrated person with lots of multicultural friends, you are elevated into another class? I mean this BBC season that is coming up seems from the trailers to be focussing on that sort of person... I dunno if I've expressed that very well...

Anyway, the 'white' thing is ridiculous. There are plenty of 2nd, third or more generation people living here who have dark skins, and most of the current immigration is by white people from across Europe. I'd be interested to know how British black and Asian people react to the new European immigrants.

Always bearing in mind of course, that there wouldn't be British people without immigrants, if you go back to the last ice age, and at ever point in history since...

I think there is a class of people who like to moan, who hate change and who want stuff handed to them on a plate, given half a chance. I think that is the group referred to in the terms of this TV season - although of course that description could equally apply to some people of any race...

 

[buddha]

Are we talking about your stereotype white bloke/woman that lives on a council estate, has few/no qualifications, can't/won't jet a job, has a BNP leaflet through the letterbox - so blames it all on the immigrants?

I live in what used to be a council/industrial estate in South London, so see and speak to some of 'these people'. 20+ years ago they would have got a job in one of the local factories. Today many of these jobs don't exist. Regrettably, the factories are closed. So you can either work in a call centre, become a security guard at Tesco etc ... or go on the dole.

I can see why 'they' would blame this situation on immigration. (call centres in India, when did you last see a white security guard? ...) Which leads to apathy and a benefits culture, through the generations.

So I don't know about forgotten, maybe ignored (while everyone else 'makes' money) is a better word.

BTW: 20 years ago your typical working-class white bloke would have called me a "Paki". And they often did. Even though I am not from Pakistan ;-) So at least some things have improved - a bit.

Just my tuppence worth

 

[snorri]

when did you last see a white security guard? ...)

Yesterday, I haven't seen a non white one since I was in London in early January.

 

[stevenb]

In this country today there is no dominant race.
We are and always have been a cosmopolitan nation.
I thought the social class categorising stopped when Labour lost their seat in the Governmant in the late 70's?
To me there is no working class.
However I do feel that sometimes the governments attentions are steered from one race to another all to easily. If everyone wishes to be an equal in the UK then we should all have equality....save those who can't be ar*ed in life and crims etc.
What can you do though.
Moving to Canada is my goal.

 

[andygates]

I think they might think they've been forgotten, but they haven't, they're just enjoying a good moan (which is a working-class British tradition back to the Norman conquests)

 

[snorri]

Moving to Canada is my goal.

Good move, just as long as you don't go native

 

[Noodley]

I reckon it's just fine and dandy.

 

[snorri]

I reckon it's just fine and dandy.

The working class, the government or the weather?

 

[craigwend]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6295743.stm

 

[Noodley]

The working class, the government or the weather?

Everything. No point getting all bothered about nonsense.

 

[Dave5N]

I would like the term working class defined. I am a working man. I earn in excess of 40k a year. I own my own house, the mortgage is paid, My kids arre grown up. Many times I hear the term working class, but i get the impression that the people who this refers to are unemployed and living in council estates? Is this correct? Does the term middle class refer to me or those who earn in excess of 100k? Does the term actually refer to all people who are working no matter what the wages they earn? A lot of questions there but i think the definitions are blurred and are really meaningless.

<Harry Enfield> And I yam considerably richer than yow </Harry Enfield>

 

[redcogs]

Income level is not the determining factor of social class. What is critically important is the 'relationship to the means of production':

If you are a person, black or white or brown, and you sell your labour to somebody who owns the factory, office, or other place of productive work, then you are, by virtue of this objective measure - working class. Other social categories exist, but the main societal division is between the workers on the one hand, and the economic exploiters of the ruling class (and owners of the means of production) on the other.

Thus, the concept of a 'white working class' is erroneous, and probably a mischievously subtle attempt to further stir up resentments against minorities.

The truth is that the working class are always forgotton until they begin to consciously assert themselves and begin the long overdue process of achieving social justice and equality.

Isn't this a soapbox topic anyway?

 

[Globalti]

Anybody hear Ian Duncan Smith on R4 yesterday evening? He made it clear for me: when Britain had a manufacturing industry, working men had jobs in factories with a hierarchy of command, which gave them aspirations. They worked hard and their lives had purpose; every week they put money on the family table and this gave them pride. Now all of that is gone, the few jobs left for working men are not even masculine - who can take pride in manning a call centre or selling cups of coffee to moaning ungrateful members of the public? It is the lack of aspiration and role models, which has led to the rise of the feckless celebrity as role model and it's the lack of pride or direction, which leads people to seek stimulation through alcohol or drugs.

 

[Canrider]

who can take pride in manning a call centre or selling cups of coffee to moaning ungrateful members of the public?

I think this statement cuts two ways: it's attempting to blame the lack of 'masculine' jobs for a perceived lack of aspiration. But those two jobs deploy skills that are traditionally perceived as being 'masculine' in nature.

Think of what those two jobs entail: The call centre operator is the person you go to to sort out a problem you're having, a very stereotypically 'masculine' activity. You want to speak to a person who can 'make things happen', who can take charge and sort it quickly.
The person on the counter at the coffee shop has to quickly perform a series of skilled physical actions to produce a well-crafted product, a process virtually identical to assembly-line work and again a stereotypically 'masculine' activity.

The problem, then, cuts from both directions: While these jobs could be perceived as 'masculine' in a stereotypical sense, there is a broad perception that they are not. The finger of blame would appear to point to the 'moaning ungrateful members of the public'.

So what can we do to reclaim these kinds of jobs as ones involving deploying skill and agency to a task, rather than their present status as menial button-pushing and excuse-making?

(before you ask, yes, I have been re-reading Pirsig)