Wheels - where do I begin?

[Mugshot]

Yeah, but we've specifically been told not to have any fun. Not on this thread .

Ah, then I shall consider my wrist slapped and await my thread ban

 

[Justinslow]

As I said in another thread, all yellow saddle is trying to do is save people money that they could spend on, ooh I don't know, their kids, or a nice meal out, or a charity or whatever. It doesn't preclude spending it on the wheels, only to be aware when doing so of what benefits you're not going to get.
.

But that was one of the whole problems that started this insanely long thread, it's not for you, Yellow saddle or me to dictate what the OP spends his/her money on. If the OP wants to spend his/her £200 on a gold plated tooth brush - that's their prerogative.
There's been some sensible advice in these posts let's leave it at that we are not children.

 

[Cyclist33]

But that was one of the whole problems that started this insanely long thread, it's not for you, Yellow saddle or me to dictate what the OP spends his/her money on. If the OP wants to spend his/her £200 on a gold plated tooth brush - that's their prerogative.
There's been some sensible advice in these posts let's leave it at that we are not children.

Not in precise terms what the original thread asked. It asked for advice but did not explicitly tie that to wheels thus allowing and inviting wider advice. To be honest I'm not sure what anyone's problems were with that wider advice.

But if as you say it's not for us to dictate to someone what to spend their money on, then why was the question asked in the first place, and surely it had to work both ways - if "don't waste your money" is invalid advice then "I like superstars" or "you will not go wrong with zondas" is equally worthless in the opposite direction?

I don't believe it is wrong to have this debate. I do hope it isn't cheapened by personal insults again.

 

[Justinslow]

I don't believe it is wrong to have this debate. I do hope it isn't cheapened by personal insults again.

No not at all, there has been good advice on all levels, I haven't read any bad advice, just some advice seems to have been put across very poorly (and perhaps a bit over the top) and in a presumptuous arrogant manner. When I choose my wheels I decided I wanted lighter and hopefully "quicker" to try to help my time trials and within a budget of £200, that's it. I wasn't that worried about what they looked like but as they had them in red and they looked a bit different choose them. If that makes me a "bit of a div" to not consider every possible permutation then so be it. Some people don't analyse to the eighth degree.
If my wheels fall apart after a month or make me slower I'll let you know but until then I'm thrilled with my choice. I hope the OP is too when or if he buys some.

 

[gbb]

Who gives a toss if it makes any difference to your times, speed, etc etc...if you want new wheels...buy em and enjoy em.

Equally, you can apply common sense to it all and not buy a better bike, wheels, carbon components etc etc.
Early in my ever growing love of roadbikes, I started with a cro-mo Raleigh Chimera, gazillion spoked wheels, pig iron components...and I could ride like the wind on it (seriously). Ive always been quite fastidious about mileage and times, average speed etc...and what I can say is as ive upgraded bikes from cro mo to ally, to carbon fibre, mildly upgraded wheelsets etc etc...my average times over a given distance hardly budged an inch...but the ride quality is immensely better.

Dont apply too much thought to it all...if you want it, buy it.

A final point...new wheels arent always faster then old ones.
Stock wheels on my old Bianchi, well run in, well maintained, ran like a goodun. I wanted new wheels...just because. I brought Fulcrum 5s, lovely looking compared to my old wheels, but the first ride on them, I knew they were significantly slower, they just didn't spin. This was (IMO) because the bearings were new and needed some miles to free up, then they'd be ok. I was too impatient, brought some low friction bearings, fitted them, immensly better, instantly.
Bear in mind, Fulcrum 5s are not high end wheels, a bit better than budget ones...I like them and proved they're strong, but thats another story.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Who gives a toss if it makes any difference to your times, speed, etc etc...if you want new wheels...buy em and enjoy em.


A final point...new wheels arent always faster then old ones.
Stock wheels on my old Bianchi, well run in, well maintained, ran like a goodun. I wanted new wheels...just because. I brought Fulcrum 5s, lovely looking compared to my old wheels, but the first ride on them, I knew they were significantly slower, they just didn't spin. This was (IMO) because the bearings were new and needed some miles to free up, then they'd be ok. I was too impatient, brought some low friction bearings, fitted them, immensly better, instantly.
Bear in mind, Fulcrum 5s are not high end wheels, a bit better than budget ones...I like them and proved they're strong, but thats another story.

What do you mean by "they just didn't spin"?

 

[gbb]

What do you mean by "they just didn't spin"?

Section of slight downhill I used to commute every day, you know roughly how far you should be able to freewheel...first timeon the Fulcrums I just slowed too quickly, I thought my brakes were binding it was so noticeable.
Home, upturn the bike, spin wheels, they rotated a few times, then stopped quite quickly. Put my old wheels in, hugely different, they spun and spun. Of course its not scientific, but about the same amount of force applied resulted in two hugely different results.
Still got the Fulcrums and very happy with them....
Its possible they were defective or poorly fitted (the original bearings).or it may be normal to be a bit tight at first.

 

[gbb]

Anyway (tongue in cheek mode)..what you want is 45 year old hubs. As a kid about 12, I remember like yesterday overhauling hubs and most importantly, lubing with oil not grease, applied through the flip up lid in the hub. Those wheels used to spin....and spin....and spin for what seemed like eons.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Section of slight downhill I used to commute every day, you know roughly how far you should be able to freewheel...first timeon the Fulcrums I just slowed too quickly, I thought my brakes were binding it was so noticeable.
Home, upturn the bike, spin wheels, they rotated a few times, then stopped quite quickly. Put my old wheels in, hugely different, they spun and spun. Of course its not scientific, but about the same amount of force applied resulted in two hugely different results.
Still got the Fulcrums and very happy with them....
Its possible they were defective or poorly fitted (the original bearings).or it may be normal to be a bit tight at first.

OK, I see how you made your assumption. The fact that the "tight" wheel spun a few times before stopping means that it worked perfectly. The fact that the other one spun a bit more, means that the bearing was worn a bit more (given that all things are equal on the two wheels).

The difference in resistance is miniscule and cannot be detected by how far you can freewheel on the one set vs the other. The rolling resistance difference between the two bearings is measured in grams and I'm talking 5 or so grams. The resistance from tyre rolling resistance and airflow when freewheeling is a few hundred times more and thus completely obscures other things, particularly as two test runs outside a lab cannot be equalized.

The right name for most bearings in wheels is deep groove cartridge bearings. The inner round ring is called the inner race and the outer round ring, the outer race. The two facing sides on the races have a shallow groove called, believe it or not, a deep groove, hence the name deep groove bearings. The ball runs in the groove. The ball does not spin at the same speed as the turning race because of the difference in circumference between the two. The ball spins at the average speed of the two races and hence slides a lot - 50% of it's distance, to be exact. For the sliding to not destroy the ball and races, the ball has to glide over a tenacious layer of grease.

Now, Imagine a bowling alley and visualize the gutter on the side full of water. You launch the ball and it hits the gutter, rolling down the gutter. In front of the ball is a wake in the form of a bulge that runs ahead of the ball. At the back of the ball is a rooster tail of water shooting up and a bit of a wake that follows the ball. This requires energy and it gets it from the kinetic energy in the ball and slows the ball down. To the sides of the ball rolling down the gutter is water that overshoots the gutter and goes down the alley.

Back to the bearing. The same happens there. The ball has to push the grease out of its way and that requires energy that is expressed as rolling resistance. However, unlike the wasteful gutter in the bowling alley, the grease is saved. This is done by two splash-guards on the side of the groove, called bearing seals. Their job is to push grease back into the groove and of course to prevent contamination from outside. They are made of rubber and like all rubber, don't like being rubbed dry on metal surfaces. They will slide a bit better with some lubrication and last longer. They are thus designed in such a way that they leak a teensy bit. This allows some grease to escape under the lip of the seal and thus lubricate the seal. Unfortunately once the grease has escaped, it is gone. The grease inside a cartridge bearing is thus a consumable and the bearing's life is determined by the quantity of grease in there.

The newer the bearing, the more grease still in there and the greater the bearing's rolling resistance. I say "great" but that is within the parameters of extremely little. As the bearing rolls and the grease is churned, it warms up and becomes softer and the bearing rolls easier.

IN summary, your observation was correct. New bearings will spin down a bit quicker. However, your assumption was too ambitious. The effect is so small that it is only noticeable on a an upside-down bike experiencing no air drag or tyre drag.

You just cannot make judgements on a wheel based on how quickly it spins down. If you spin it and it doesn't come to an immediate stop, the bearings will make no difference to the ride.

At the end of a bearing's life, it will spin the fastest and some people interpret that as a better bearing than the one about to replace it. It isn't, it is at the end of its useful life in spite of its smoothness.

 

[gbb]

OK, I see how you made your assumption. The fact that the "tight" wheel spun a few times before stopping means that it worked perfectly. The fact that the other one spun a bit more, means that the bearing was worn a bit more (given that all things are equal on the two wheels).

The difference in resistance is miniscule and cannot be detected by how far you can freewheel on the one set vs the other. The rolling resistance difference between the two bearings is measured in grams and I'm talking 5 or so grams. The resistance from tyre rolling resistance and airflow when freewheel is a few hundred times more and thus completely obscures other things, particularly as two test runs outside a lab cannot be equalized.

The right name for most bearings in wheels is deep groove cartridge bearings. The inner round ring is called the inner race and the outer round ring, the outer race. The two facing sides on the races have a shallow groove called, believe it or not, a deep groove, hence the name deep groove bearings. The ball runs in the groove. The ball does not spin at the same speed as the turning race because of the difference in circumference between the two. The ball spins at the average speed of the two races and hence slides a lot - 50% of it's distance, to be exact. For the sliding to not destroy the ball and races, the ball has to glide over a tenacious layer of grease.

Now, Imagine a bowling alley and visualize the gutter on the side full of water. You launch the ball and it hits the gutter, rolling down the gutter. In front of the ball is a wake in the form of a bulge that runs ahead of the ball. At the back of the ball is a rooster tail of water shooting up and a bit of a wake that follows the ball. This requires energy and it gets it from the kinetic energy in the ball and speeds the ball down. To the sides of the ball rolling down the gutter is water that overshoots the gutter and goes down the alley.

Back to the bearing. The same happens there. The ball has to push the grease out of its way and that requires energy that is expressed as rolling resistance. However, unlike the wasteful gutter in the bowling alley, the grease is saved. This is done by two splash-guards on the side of the groove, called bearing seals. Their job is to push grease back into the groove and of course to prevent contamination from outside. They are made of rubber and like all rubber, don't like being rubbed dry on metal surfaces. They will slide a bit better with some lubrication and last longer. They are thus designed in such a way that they leak a teensy bit. This allows some grease to escape under the lip of the seal and thus lubricate the seal. Unfortunately once the grease has escaped, it is gone. The grease inside a cartridge bearing is thus a consumable and the bearing's life is determined by the quantity of grease in there.

The newer the bearing, the more grease still in there and the greater the bearing's rolling resistance. I say "great" but that is within the parameters of extremely little. As the bearing rolls and the grease is churned, it warms up and becomes softer and the bearing rolls easier.

IN summary, your observation was correct. New bearings will spin down a bit quicker. However, your assumption was too ambitious. The effect is so small that it is only noticeable on a an upside down bike experiencing no air drag or tyre drag.

You just cannot make judgements on a wheel based on how quickly it spins down. If you spin it and it doesn't come to an immediate stop, the bearings will make no difference to the ride.

At the end of a bearing's life, it will spin the fastest and some people interpret that as a better bearing than the one about to replace it. It isn't, it is at the end of its useful life in spite of its smoothness.

I got bored after the first line.

 

[gbb]

No real offence intended yellow, but you do tend to bludgeon a subject to death. You doubtless are a good and experienced bike mechanic, but bugger, you do come across poorly ((In my , as respectfully as possible, humble opinion)

 

[raleighnut]

Anyway (tongue in cheek mode)..what you want is 45 year old hubs. As a kid about 12, I remember like yesterday overhauling hubs and most importantly, lubing with oil not grease, applied through the flip up lid in the hub. Those wheels used to spin....and spin....and spin for what seemed like eons.

What you have said is completely true, 40 years ago the materials used and manufacturing tolerances were far superior to anything cobbled together in the far east these days. I've got a few hubs from the late 70s early 80s that have virtually no wear on them (and no seals either) BUT, these hubs need to be maintained regularly (and we ain't talking just a quick squirt of oil) they need stripping down, washing out with a degreaser and wiping out with a clean cloth before being re-assembled in a grit free environment (there is no need to go over the top though, rebuilding them on a sheet of newspaper with clean hands is more than good enough)
Thing is very few people these days are prepared to put the effort in to keep stuff in tip-top order, they would sooner buy new and say "well they were worn out" but if the correct maintenance had been done when it was needed (before a problem occurred) everything would be fine.
Same thing goes for bottom brackets and headraces, service them BEFORE a problem occurs and they will last for years.
A good test for a rebuilt wheel hub is that when it is spun it should continue to rotate for 5-10 minutes until the weight of the tyre valve stops it going 'over the top' and then it should 'pendulum' backwards and forwards several times before eventually stopping with the valve at the bottom. (don't try this with hubs with 'seals' on though)

 

[Milkfloat]

I am not sure I can believe that engineering tolerances were better 40 years ago. Taking the car industry as an example, engineering tolerances think of the difference in the engine between an Austin Princess and something like a Ford Focus. It is night and day. I appreciate that the Bike industry is not the Car industry, but a lot of the tooling and engineering has trickled down.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

I am not sure I can believe that engineering tolerances were better 40 years ago. Taking the car industry as an example, engineering tolerances think of the difference in the engine between an Austin Princess and something like a Ford Focus. It is night and day. I appreciate that the Bike industry is not the Car industry, but a lot of the tooling and engineering has trickled down.

If you go to a vintage car event you'll find people walking around kicking tyres and knocking on the cars saying, "they don't make them like they used to." They are right of course. Nowadays they make them better. Better, lighter, more economical, quieter, more durable, more accurate, safer, cheaper and practical.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

No real offence intended yellow, but you do tend to bludgeon a subject to death. You doubtless are a good and experienced bike mechanic, but bugger, you do come across poorly ((In my , as respectfully as possible, humble opinion)

Mmmm I think I've read this before or I probably thought that too myself

I saw a few posts that referred to a comment by YS so the curiosity got the better of me

I think a reply like the following would have persuaded YS the OP just wants new wheels.
"
OK.
OP, you need some new wheels. Why do you need new wheels and what is wrong with the wheels you currently have?

You ask about size and materials. Use the size you currently have on there and as for materials, what do you currently have on there and how does that material not satisfy your needs?"

Why do I need new wheels? Mmm I just fancy new wheels.

What is wrong with my current wheels? Mmm nothing is wrong with them, I'm just bored of them.

I think they are made of alluminion. I don't think I'm unsatisfied but I don't know of any other materials so maybe I'm missing out, that's why I'm asking for help.