What have us cyclists been saying for ages?

[Tom B]

Funnily enough I was at a light controlled bike crossing in Northampton today and had exactly the same thought about crossing priorities. I also believe the button does nothing at all, no matter when you press it the sequence remains identical.

Last summer noticed that one of TFGMs upgraded beelines simple road pelican tooucan crossing at the end of a cycle route took an age to change to red when the button was press. This is not what beelines is all about I though, so I fired off a fault report.

In fairness they sent an engineer out who tested the crossing and replies directly to me statiing that the crossing as encountered by me had a 90 second delay from button being pressed to the red sequence starting.

He took my point and apologeticly changed it to a 60 second delay if there had been be red within 2/3mins.

The reasoning is to allow people crossing to build up and avoid too many changes and stopping the traffic too often. In practice you stand there on your own waiting like a turkey for Christmas and In reality people don't wait, they chance their arm and cross.

I dunno I sort of seems like it's paying lip service to the notion of prioritising cycling and walking without actually doing it.

I have issues with the bee lines project anyway, mainly that there is no money for ongoing maintenance which falls to local authorities. The same local authorities that can't afford to repaint a 100m cycle lane or an asl box.

 

[mjr]

The same local authorities that can't afford to repaint a 100m cycle lane or an asl box.

Yet strangely find millions to repair carriageways? It's won't pay, not can't afford. Arguably there should be some dedicated maintenance funding to bypass that broken decision but it's not "can't afford".

Traffic lights... Ah, traffic lights. In theory the crossing can default green until vehicles are detected but in practice 90+% of them wait the maximum 66 seconds between button push and green, unless they change when they detect a gap in motorists (and most people have crossed anyway) or the button's a placebo that just lights up a "WAIT" symbol. I've complained in the past and basically been told the timing won't be changed because it'd limit the number of motorists who can get through and people crossing can treat the red man as "give way" if they want. Noone seems to care that the most vulnerable people are left standing at the kerb where motorists often crash for about a minute at each arm of a junction that they cross.

 

[Andy in Germany]

The reasoning is to allow people crossing to build up and avoid too many changes and stopping the traffic too often. In practice you stand there on your own waiting like a turkey for Christmas and In reality people don't wait, they chance their arm and cross.

I dunno I sort of seems like it's paying lip service to the notion of prioritising cycling and walking without actually doing it.

In other words to inconvenience pedestrians and cyclists and prioritise motor vehicles, then grudgingly stop motor vehicles for the shortest possible time so they don't have their Very Important Journeys delayed too much.

I've often said that traffic light junctions aren't there for pedestrians: they are there marginalise pedestrians and keep them out of the way.

 

[icowden]

There is a good article here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23869955

The upshot is that if a pedestrian crossing is at a junction, the crossing is likely to be automated during the busiest times (e.g. 7am to 7pm) and to be on "manual" during quieter times. So most of the time for most people, most crossing buttons are inactive. This is to enable better traffic management.

 

[icowden]

Someone mentioned that they drive their kids 5 miles to school, once again school buses will become the norm and people will stop making excuses and get on with it.

It was me - and I pointed out that the stop for the school bus is about 2.5 miles away. On top of that it would be more expensive to pay for the school bus than to drive the extra 10 minutes to the school. For kids living much further away, the majority actually get the school bus. It's just the poor local infrastructure that is the problem, and that the closer you are, the less cost effective a school bus becomes.

 

[mjr]

[...] So most of the time for most people, most crossing buttons are inactive. This is to enable better traffic management.

And that is the normal Orwellian definition of "traffic" to exclude foot and cycle traffic, so the most efficient use of space is discouraged and the construction industry paid to bury moreof the countryside under wasteful acres of tarmac that is mostly unoccupied by people.

 

[icowden]

And that is the normal Orwellian definition of "traffic" to exclude foot and cycle traffic...

Not sure Orwell ever defined traffic. Traffic control and traffic signals significantly pre-date the invention of the motor-car. Pretty much all "roads" whether paved or not, were based on commerce and movement of goods. You can't really complain therefore that existing road infrastructure favours the automobile having been based on pre-existing road structures.

The disadvantage of being an "old" country is that our roads were seldom planned to be efficient and spacious. They were the tracks around fields or the major safe routes between towns and cities. It's only when you go to much more newly settled countries like the USA where you find vast wide roads created specifically for the motor car.

The difference that is now starting to happen is that we are finding ways to finally reduce the number of cars and find other ways of travelling.To wind back from convenience to improve our health.

 

[mjr]

Not sure Orwell ever defined traffic.

Maybe not, but if his Ministry of Truth had defined it, it would probably be to only include one blessed type of vehicle and not count people or goods, wouldn't it?

Traffic control and traffic signals significantly pre-date the invention of the motor-car. Pretty much all "roads" whether paved or not, were based on commerce and movement of goods. You can't really complain therefore that existing road infrastructure favours the automobile having been based on pre-existing road structures.

Where the old structures survive, they're sometimes not so bad and just need the odd bollard to stop through motoring, especially in towns, but current road infrastructure has often obliterated pre-existing road structures when it's been deliberately suboptimised to favour automobilists. Looking at two roads near me where one cyclist died this morning and another cycleway user was seriously injured last night, one is a cheapskate-quasi-motorway cut fresh through green fields without even footways, while the other is now a nine-lane monster that has gobbled up almost all of the common of the nearest village. I think it's pretty valid to complain that they are motorist-favouring screwups which should be undone.

 

[confusedcyclist]

Part of the problem is, we live in an economy where it isn't always easy to live without a car, in a market economy you have to compete and take every advantage, or your products gets squeezed out. It's a race to the bottom, and so our roads. Until we acknowledge this, nothing will change. We need an economy that thrives on slack, not taut competition for comparative advantage. It's no wonder under such social arrangement no one cares to think about the harm our transport policies cause.

 

[Drago]

The people that do live without a car do just fine. The people that are too lazy too seek any alternative make excuses.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Not sure Orwell ever defined traffic. Traffic control and traffic signals significantly pre-date the invention of the motor-car.

Can you give some examples of this with dates please?

Thanks.

 

[mjr]

Can you give some examples of this with dates please?

1868 - first traffic light installed.
1869 - first traffic light exploded, injuring nearby policeman.
1881 - Trouvé's electric automobile demonstrated.
1885 - Benz Motorwagen built.

 

[classic33]

1868 - first traffic light installed.
1869 - first traffic light exploded, injuring nearby policeman.
1881 - Trouvé's electric automobile demonstrated.
1885 - Benz Motorwagen built.

"Before traffic lights, traffic police controlled the flow of traffic. A well-documented example is that on London Bridge in 1722."

Mary Ward, killed in 1869.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

1868 - first traffic light installed.
1869 - first traffic light exploded, injuring nearby policeman.
1881 - Trouvé's electric automobile demonstrated.
1885 - Benz Motorwagen built.

Didn‘t realise you are also icowden. Either way, I’d say 13 years between first TL and first car does not class as a significantly pre dates.

Besides, having just checked, first car was 1769. 99 years before first traffic light.

Main point is, we all know that if we remove motorised traffic from roads we can also remove traffic lights. The mass spread of traffic lights is primarily down to motorised traffic.

Plus that is traffic lights what about pelican or toucan crossings? Did they exist in any great number before the car?

 

[Wodman]

As a lifelong “greenie” and cyclist, it sticks in the craw a bit to be told how simple it is to live near to your workplace. I run a business in the New Forest and can’t afford half a million plus for a three bed semi near to work, so have to live twenty miles away in Dorset, where house prices are near half that. A three hour, 40 mile bus trip (on alternate Tuesdays and Thursdays) doesn’t really work.

I have been waiting twenty years for a job to come up locally that doesn’t involve a fifty per cent pay cut....

ln another ten years I look forward to retiring and spending time on Internet forums telling everyone how they should live their lives in a perfect world, rather than having to make the best of the excuse for an integrated transport system that currently exists.