TV Licensing - Bloody Cheek!!

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marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
Davidc said:
I missed a bit earlier (in a hurry). Basically yes, since indoor aerials don't work well for analogue.

Indoor and set top aerials will work - but as with analogue the results are unpredictable. I don't like anecdotal evidence, but in this case it's all I have.

The next call was to confirm that they needed one of the boxes with a RF output. Answer yes. Their set was one with two knobs. One with numbers 1 to 9 and a U on it, and VHF written underneath. The other with 21 to 68 written on it, continuous tuning, and UHF written under it. (It is a colour set). Those old enough to have been around in the 60s and early 70s will recognise this as a dual standard 405/625 set! It had a reconditioned tube in 1977.

A couple of days after Redruth and its repeaters switched I had the third call, to say it all worked OK, including the video recorder (connected as instructed) and what was all the fuss about?

Other relatives (in their 80s in south Devon) just bought the box, plugged it in a few years ago for Freeview. They followed the instructions, no problems. They also said that they didn't know anyone who had had any difficulties.

While anecdotal all except the first example are typical experiences of the real world after the switchover. No new aerials needed, better reception than before. No problems whatever.

There was nothing in my original post which was 'naughty', it's just 100% accurate.

The new full digital service just replaces the now obsolete analogue service. Same transmitter sites, same or better coverage, same aerial groups (there might be some low power relays where that's not quite true but noone's likely to notice). All anyone neds to do is plug in the box, switch it on, and tell it to scan twice. Once when BBC2 analogue gets switched off, and again when the rest of the analogue service gets switched off. Thats it - done. Even a 98 year old can manage it.

Satellite changed from Analogue to Digital some years ago. This is simpler.

I disagree with that. Anecdotal evidence suggests that digital won't work with perhaps as much as a majority of indoor aerials. If you actually number crunch the models even inputting in the higher power requirements it can be seen that there will be problems. To deny so is village idiot understanding of digital and distribution systems.

What you don't seem to grasp is that some of the more difficult regions to go digital were picked last and keep on quoting yeah but it's all right in the south west, it's all right in the south west when you have little knowledge of the how the coverage predictors work. Your original point of cherry picking a region is naughty as it's picking a better case scenario. Places like London will have considerably more of a headache. I've also highlighted a sentance that I think is important but which you clearly don't think is so. Your points are naughty because an optimised system for digital is not the same as an optimised one for analogue, there will be winners and losers. You still haven't addressed any of this. I'm all for encouraging people to go digital but you have a poor understanding of the engineering issues and are unfortunately glossing over some biggies. If we lived in a perfect world where everybody had high quality roof top aerials and kept their cabling in good nick digital would be fantastic. People can't be arsed with that, so there will be a few problems.

As for RF modulators, that's another point the authorities haven't really thought about much. It can be seen how angry and confused people get on this one as this year Virgin Media have been switching it off causing uproar.

As for comparing satellite to terrestrial!

PS you forgot to mention the QAM change too.
 

Davidc

Guru
Location
Somerset UK
Marinyork,

I'm not planning to carry on with this discussion much longer, other than to say that 25+ years in broadcast engineering, much in sound some in transmission and systems, might have left me knowing just a little.

"What you don't seem to grasp is that some of the more difficult regions to go digital were picked last " You are wrong. The order of change is just a function of planning the switchover assuming London last because its biggest by population so any bugs get ironed out before going there.

Wales (next year) is by far the most difficult region to do, with the most potential problems with Scotland, not sure when, next most difficult. The North East which I believe is your area is relatively simple (much simpler than the South West). The West is supposed to be the simplest so my guess is we'll have the biggest problems.

"Anecdotal evidence suggests that digital won't work with perhaps as much as a majority of indoor aerials". Information is being collected from the South West. Overall , I'm told, its looking very 50/50 wins to losses for room aerials. For loft aerials the number which don't work when they did before is minimal (I haven't seen the report which will contain this yet).

"when you have little knowledge of the how the coverage predictors work" I used to teach this!

"To deny so is village idiot understanding of digital and distribution systems" It's now a minor part of what I do, but I still design them!

"Places like London will have considerably more of a headache" London has challenging problems owing mainly to the effects of buildings. That's why analogue is poor in many places, particularly with ghosting problems. The type of transmission system (OFDM) gives digital some resistance to multipath (ghosting as was) interference, but it falls over fast at its limit. My guess is that there will be a greater problem in London than in most places, but still only very small.

"an optimised system for digital is not the same as an optimised one for analogue" Provided the transmitters themselves meet the specifications there's very little differece.

"I've also highlighted a sentance that I think is important but which you clearly don't think is so" It isn't. The numbers affected are tiny, and experiments with typical aerials in use (done in the real world with real signals) have proved that they can cope. I'll check if it's being done if I need to, but I was told that a small compensating increase in power was possible at all affected sites.

"you have a poor understanding of the engineering issues" I would respectfully suggest that it's very much the other way round. The "biggies" have all been considered and addressed, to the extent that there aren't expected to be any which affect viewers.

"If we lived in a perfect world where everybody had high quality roof top aerials and kept their cabling in good nick digital would be fantastic. People can't be arsed with that, so there will be a few problems." That was the biggest worry when the switchover was planned. Experience in Whitehaven, and then in the South West has been that because people "get the aerial man in" when the picture gets bad, there are far less than expected which won't work.

"As for RF modulators" The boxes with them are available, Virgin have nothing to do with it except where they provide the receiving equipment, and dealing with their customers is an issue for them only. The boxes just work, the same as the ordinary boxes do, but cost a bit more.

"As for comparing satellite to terrestrial!" For most people the terrestrial digital changeover is easier - only one thing to add, and it's indoors.

"PS you forgot to mention the QAM change too" No. The experimental result is that with the higher power, and the syatem calculated and optimised for QUAM 64 the coverage, protection and robustness requirements are all met.

As I say I don't intend to continue this as it'll go nowhere, however respond if you wish.

The proof of the pudding .... We'll know in 4 years. The Germans are well ahead of us, with all information published, much in English as well. If you're interested take a look.

Edit: I assumed you meant the technical performance of 64QAM. There is of course an issue which can't be resolved. Some of the On Digital boxes, inherited by users when ITV digital collapsed, won't go on getting anything. They're old and weren't paid for anyway.

There's another issue, more real than any to do with switchover, and that's what happens next. If there's going to be significant terrestrial HD it's very likely that the coding will have to change rendering all the boxes we've just bought useless, and all the new digital TVs in need of a set top box ......
 

Dan B

Disengaged member
I said:
Dear Sirs,

I am in receipt of a letter from you titled "WARNING: YOU MAY BE BREAKING THE LAW" (your ref: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx) which is the latest in a long line of form letters that frankly seem intended to cause distress or alarm in their recipient and must surely be grounds for a harassment action against you.

Thank you, nevertheless, for your concern. I can assure you that your supposition is incorrect, so would please ask you to stop wasting licence payers' money and my time by sending me any more similar missives.


I hope you have a pleasant weekend (or have had a pleasant weekend, if you are reading this on Monday)


Best wishes,
Daniel
To send or not to send? Can't decide. I also don't know if I should add "going forward" in there somewhere, just because
 
Dear Sir or Madam,
It may interest you to know that for three years following my father's death, you continued to send to his former address a free television licence, in fact for all I know you may still be sending a licence to his former address, but I no longer live there to take advantage of it. I would like to thank you for this consideration.
 

CopperBrompton

Bicycle: a means of transport between cake-stops
Location
London
[quote name='swee'pea99']Dare I say that I think the license fee is excellent value for money.[/quote]
I agree. Indeed, I would willingly pay the licence fee, despite not having a TV, for Radio 4. What I object to are the threatening letters which more-or-less accuse non-TV-owners of licence-evasion.
 

swee'pea99

Squire
Ben Lovejoy said:
I agree. Indeed, I would willingly pay the licence fee, despite not having a TV, for Radio 4. What I object to are the threatening letters which more-or-less accuse non-TV-owners of licence-evasion.
Agreed, absolutely. I think the root of the problem, as someone posted earlier, is that chasing non-payers has now been out-sourced to third parties operating on a 'performance-by-results' system.
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
Davidc said:
Marinyork,

I'm not planning to carry on with this discussion much longer, other than to say that 25+ years in broadcast engineering, much in sound some in transmission and systems, might have left me knowing just a little.

Edit: I assumed you meant the technical performance of 64QAM. There is of course an issue which can't be resolved. Some of the On Digital boxes, inherited by users when ITV digital collapsed, won't go on getting anything. They're old and weren't paid for anyway.

There's another issue, more real than any to do with switchover, and that's what happens next. If there's going to be significant terrestrial HD it's very likely that the coding will have to change rendering all the boxes we've just bought useless, and all the new digital TVs in need of a set top box ......

You might have 25 years experience but you're a bit slow on the uptake to say the least as I clearly know far more about this than you do, but you get there in the end which is the important bit. I already mentioned mux B migration :tongue: don't you dare quote it back at me and pretend you brought it up first. I'm also a bit annoyed that you keep on regurgitating things I've already written for example on indoor aerials and London and then saying oh I disagree but I will write something that actually agrees.

If you're interested I suggest you read some technical documents and actually educate yourself a little bit. I'm not bothered if you don't have the necessary maths to work out the modelling or coding but this stuff is all in documents available online.
 

Davidc

Guru
Location
Somerset UK
marinyork said:
You might have 25 years experience but you're a bit slow on the uptake to say the least as I clearly know far more about this than you do, but you get there in the end which is the important bit. I already mentioned mux B migration :angry: don't you dare quote it back at me and pretend you brought it up first. I'm also a bit annoyed that you keep on regurgitating things I've already written for example on indoor aerials and London and then saying oh I disagree but I will write something that actually agrees.

If you're interested I suggest you read some technical documents and actually educate yourself a little bit. I'm not bothered if you don't have the necessary maths to work out the modelling or coding but this stuff is all in documents available online.

Provided my clients are happy to go on paying my fees for use of my knowledge of and expertise in this technology I'm quite happy too.
 

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New Member
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