OP
OP
rogerzilla
Legendary Member
Papyrus should have been the famous one, though, not Flying Scotsman. It was the fastest, and also a proper A3 from new.
Trigger's broom
- Thread starter rogerzilla
- Start date
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Specialeyes
Guru
- Location
- Essex
*warning* pub philosophy incoming
If the ancient Greeks had had bikes, Heraclitus, Plutarch and Plato would be discussing the Bike of Theseus, not the Ship of Theseus.
Forget Einstein's riding-on-a-ray-of-light thought experiments, The Ship of Theseus thought experiment is the one that bakes my noodle
I *think* I come down on the side of the 'spatiotemporal theory', where gradual changes to a Thing don't prevent the thing still being the Thing... You can quickly get into ideas like 'the essence of that bike is still there' (but then Hobbes chucks a spanner in the works by asking 'what happens if someone gathers up all the discarded parts and makes a new Thing? Which thing is now The Thing?') They are, after all, just a collection of replaceable, inanimate parts, aren't they?
You can apply this to everything from brooms, classic cars and locomotives to 1960s bands and rock family trees, but I tend to apply it to vintage bikes. On the basis that lots of my bikes are older than me and will comfortably outlast me, I think any incremental changes I make to them (repainting, swapping out groupsets etc) are fair game, as their purpose is to be ridden. Similarly, if a like-for-like tube had to be replaced, then the bike is still the bike. However, they're 'only original once' so the 'mereological' tendency is to hold off from making any changes as long as possible!
If the ancient Greeks had had bikes, Heraclitus, Plutarch and Plato would be discussing the Bike of Theseus, not the Ship of Theseus.
Forget Einstein's riding-on-a-ray-of-light thought experiments, The Ship of Theseus thought experiment is the one that bakes my noodle
I *think* I come down on the side of the 'spatiotemporal theory', where gradual changes to a Thing don't prevent the thing still being the Thing... You can quickly get into ideas like 'the essence of that bike is still there' (but then Hobbes chucks a spanner in the works by asking 'what happens if someone gathers up all the discarded parts and makes a new Thing? Which thing is now The Thing?') They are, after all, just a collection of replaceable, inanimate parts, aren't they?
You can apply this to everything from brooms, classic cars and locomotives to 1960s bands and rock family trees, but I tend to apply it to vintage bikes. On the basis that lots of my bikes are older than me and will comfortably outlast me, I think any incremental changes I make to them (repainting, swapping out groupsets etc) are fair game, as their purpose is to be ridden. Similarly, if a like-for-like tube had to be replaced, then the bike is still the bike. However, they're 'only original once' so the 'mereological' tendency is to hold off from making any changes as long as possible!
- Location
- the post-brexit wasteland
i had a carerra virtuoso that, by the end, had everything replaced bar the frame…
Archie_tect
De Skieven Architek... aka Penfold + Horace
- Location
- Northumberland
*warning* pub philosophy incoming
If the ancient Greeks had had bikes, Heraclitus, Plutarch and Plato would be discussing the Bike of Theseus, not the Ship of Theseus.
Forget Einstein's riding-on-a-ray-of-light thought experiments, The Ship of Theseus thought experiment is the one that bakes my noodle
I *think* I come down on the side of the 'spatiotemporal theory', where gradual changes to a Thing don't prevent the thing still being the Thing... You can quickly get into ideas like 'the essence of that bike is still there' (but then Hobbes chucks a spanner in the works by asking 'what happens if someone gathers up all the discarded parts and makes a new Thing? Which thing is now The Thing?') They are, after all, just a collection of replaceable, inanimate parts, aren't they?
You can apply this to everything from brooms, classic cars and locomotives to 1960s bands and rock family trees, but I tend to apply it to vintage bikes. On the basis that lots of my bikes are older than me and will comfortably outlast me, I think any incremental changes I make to them (repainting, swapping out groupsets etc) are fair game, as their purpose is to be ridden. Similarly, if a like-for-like tube had to be replaced, then the bike is still the bike. However, they're 'only original once' so the 'mereological' tendency is to hold off from making any changes as long as possible!
The replacement parts are not the original bike... so emotionally it maybe the 'same bike' but it is not and can't be sold as an 'original bike'...
matticus
Guru
Fascinating stuff, Special. The above statement had me stumped for a brief moment, but luckily Wiki quickly enlightened me:
More pub philosophy, please!
T4tomo
Legendary Member
So I bought a 2nd hand CX bike for the GF, which someone had converted to flat bars for their teenager, (the original drop bars came with it). It was / is a decent light Alu Dolan frameset, so I have reverted it back to drops. it still has original frame and fork, but I have replaced / upgraded:
mini V brakes to new canti's
replaced triple crank for a new CX 48-36 double (as the drop bar shifters were 2x9) new BB
new cables and bar tape obvs
new rear mechs new cassette and chain
straightened a misaligned rear hanger
better tyres
new stem
It ran like that fine for while, then a shifter broke so....
new 10 spd shifters chain and cassette (struggled to source decent 9 spd for decent price)
new wheels as I had some lying around, so used the old rear of this on her turbo
new front mech as old one was stiff
changed front brake hanger to an up hanger, which has cured a bit of fork judder.
So I reckon only the frame and forks, saddle and seat-post are as it came, the bars came with it, but not on it.
Undoubtedly its the bike I have worked most on, lots of tinkering and adjusting, and ultimately replacing things that didn't work very well (like mini V, and I have only ever ridden it to test ride it, as its far too small
. Fortunately she loves it!
mini V brakes to new canti's
replaced triple crank for a new CX 48-36 double (as the drop bar shifters were 2x9) new BB
new cables and bar tape obvs
new rear mechs new cassette and chain
straightened a misaligned rear hanger
better tyres
new stem
It ran like that fine for while, then a shifter broke so....
new 10 spd shifters chain and cassette (struggled to source decent 9 spd for decent price)
new wheels as I had some lying around, so used the old rear of this on her turbo
new front mech as old one was stiff
changed front brake hanger to an up hanger, which has cured a bit of fork judder.
So I reckon only the frame and forks, saddle and seat-post are as it came, the bars came with it, but not on it.
Undoubtedly its the bike I have worked most on, lots of tinkering and adjusting, and ultimately replacing things that didn't work very well (like mini V, and I have only ever ridden it to test ride it, as its far too small
. Fortunately she loves it!