Top end vintage off-the-peg Raleigh tourers - Classic versus Randonneur...

[biggs682]

That's that sorted then - I guess it's just a case of waiting for a mint Classic to fall into my lap for £50

They are out there just keep looking

 

[Gunk]

I've increasingly seen the appeal of older, nicely-made stuff, over arguably technically-superior modern offerings.

I do understand your thinking, but even though I love the nostalgia, I would still rather have my 2007 Van Nicholas with it’s quirky canti brakes, bullet-proof 2x10 speed 6600 Ultegra drive train, compared with a 1990’s steel Raleigh it is in a different league.

For me, the mid-2000’s were a high point, the components seem over engineered and better made compared with modern stuff.

 

[GuyBoden]

In my experience, I think the majority of Raleigh 531 steel frames I've had from the 1980's have a very similar ride quality. I prefer Centre pull not canti brakes.

So, the Clubman would be one of my fav looking Raleigh 531 bicycles for vintage touring.

(What's wrong with the picture is that the bottom of the drop handlebars should really be horizontal.)

 

[chris667]

What on earth were you doing? Riding down steps?

If you are big, strong and heavy you can bend freewheel hub axles surprisingly easily.

There are freewheels which you won't bend of course - Royce freewheel axles are massively overengineered. But I couldn't afford a Royce freewheel hub then, and can't now.

And they're worse now than they were in the past! The only axles you can buy seem to be made of cheese these days, designed for BSO hubs. Wheels Manufacturing made decent quality axles, but I don't think they do any more.

Are freewheels that bad, and are the Randonneurs not also on Freewheels being 6/7sp?

Freewheels are a flawed design if you start a competition to add more gears like Shimano, Campag and Suntour did from the seventies. There's not too much unsupported axle on a 5 speed freewheel, but by the time you get to 8 speeds the bearing is a long way from the frame on the driveside. Shimano freehubs came to dominance because they had the bearings on the edges of the hub which eliminates the stress. You simply don't hear of freehub axles bending unless the hub itself has been damaged somehow.

Shimano made 6 and 7 speed cassettes at the time (they also made five speed cassettes, but that was a long time ago) - I assume that if the Routier had Shimano equipment, it would be reasonable to expect it to have a uniglide cassette.

Interesting you mention the paint; that on my 1987 Routier has survived remarkably well considering the life it's apparently had..

Fine, but flat. My Dawes from 1991ish has the most beautiful, deep metallic finish. And it seems incredibly hardwearing - I still see them out "in the wild" and they mostly survived very well.

 

[wafter]

I had one through my hands a couple of years ago, from memory I think I paid around £50 for it, it was a lovely thing and if the frame had not been quite so ginormous (I could barely ride it!) it would still be in my garage now.

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/raleigh-classic-531c-tourer-refurb.261094/

View attachment 703817

I remember that - looks like a splendid example. Shame it's only of use to giants (25" frame?) - unless you're a giant of course

They are out there just keep looking

Thanks - tbh it's more of a pipe dream currently as all other factors (finances, space, practical necessity) all suggest it's a bad idea

I'm in no hurry; I'll just keep an eye out for something too-good-to-miss to come up locally

I do understand your thinking, but even though I love the nostalgia, I would still rather have my 2007 Van Nicholas with it’s quirky canti brakes, bullet-proof 2x10 speed 6600 Ultegra drive train, compared with a 1990’s steel Raleigh it is in a different league.

For me, the mid-2000’s were a high point, the components seem over engineered and better made compared with modern stuff.

Cheers - the desire for a nice old Raleigh is driven by nostalgia and pleasure of ownership; it would likely only be taken out occasionally for the sake of it. Shopping duties are already well-catered for by the Fuji; more techie recreational stuff by the Genesis..

As picky as I am I find I'm generally happy on any bike as long as it's not utter cack. I have my Routier as a low-end benchmark; which is the same era (well, a shade later) and a very similar format (caliper brakes, DT shifters). However, the Routier occupied the absolute opposite end of the spectrum to the Classic, so all the bits on the Classic should be superior.

Biggest niggles with the Routier are probably the relatively harsh ride and high / limited gearing. The Classic should be much better in these regards with its 531 frame and 3x5 gearing - giving a significantly lower 30/28 compared to the Routier's 40/28. As such I think it's highly unlikey that I'll get on a Classic and be abjectly disappointed

You make an interesting point about the tech - tbh in terms of groupsets I've got no quality / reliability complaints about any of the STI-based systems I've had, and find the newer stuff nicer to use; however I can also appreciate the arguments for the potentially greater longevity of earlier stuff. From many perspectives 8sp seems to be the sweet spot; I wish I'd kept the nice "Ultegra level" 8sp Stis from my old Giant tbh..

In my experience, I think the majority of Raleigh 531 steel frames I've had from the 1980's have a very similar ride quality. I prefer Centre pull not canti brakes.

So, the Clubman would be one of my fav looking Raleigh 531 bicycles for vintage touring.

View attachment 703831
(What's wrong with the picture is that the bottom of the drop handlebars should really be horizontal.)

Thanks - what do you prefer about the centre-pulls?

I'd not cosidered a Clubman (perhaps a bit earlier / less touring-oriented?), but they're certainly nice looking bikes too. That certainly looks like a very nice example and I agree about the bars!

 

[wafter]

If you are big, strong and heavy you can bend freewheel hub axles surprisingly easily.

There are freewheels which you won't bend of course - Royce freewheel axles are massively overengineered. But I couldn't afford a Royce freewheel hub then, and can't now.

And they're worse now than they were in the past! The only axles you can buy seem to be made of cheese these days, designed for BSO hubs. Wheels Manufacturing made decent quality axles, but I don't think they do any more.

Freewheels are a flawed design if you start a competition to add more gears like Shimano, Campag and Suntour did from the seventies. There's not too much unsupported axle on a 5 speed freewheel, but by the time you get to 8 speeds the bearing is a long way from the frame on the driveside. Shimano freehubs came to dominance because they had the bearings on the edges of the hub which eliminates the stress. You simply don't hear of freehub axles bending unless the hub itself has been damaged somehow.

Shimano made 6 and 7 speed cassettes at the time (they also made five speed cassettes, but that was a long time ago) - I assume that if the Routier had Shimano equipment, it would be reasonable to expect it to have a uniglide cassette.


Fine, but flat. My Dawes from 1991ish has the most beautiful, deep metallic finish. And it seems incredibly hardwearing - I still see them out "in the wild" and they mostly survived very well.

Thanks - I'd not considered that about the design of the freewheel but it makes sense if I try to press my brain into service for a bit.

That's an interesting point about the uniglide cassette being present along with other Shimano bits. As it happens the Router has a freewheel and the only Shimano component is the 5sp cassette (which IMO is a work of art ; which I think is possibly a replacement item. By that time (1987) it seems that the higher-end bikes were getting Shimano, but perhaps a glut of lower-end components were still being munched through on the cheaper bikes.

Both the '88 and '89 Raleigh catalogues list "6sp Shimano 14-28" under "Freewheel"; which is pretty inconclusive but could conceivibly suggest either.

I recall a lot of early '90s cars copped flak for poor paint following the shift to water-based(?) on environmental grounds... perhaps similar happend with bikes.

 

[biggs682]

In my experience, I think the majority of Raleigh 531 steel frames I've had from the 1980's have a very similar ride quality. I prefer Centre pull not canti brakes.

So, the Clubman would be one of my fav looking Raleigh 531 bicycles for vintage touring.

View attachment 703831
(What's wrong with the picture is that the bottom of the drop handlebars should really be horizontal.)

Good shout as both Clubman and Royals are well capable machines

 

[Gunk]

Thanks - what do you prefer about the centre-pulls?

Centrepulls are really the predecessor of modern dual pivot side pull calipers . The early side pull callipers were only single pivot so were not particularly effective.

A decent pair of centrepulls with modern pads still work really well. Below is a fully restored set on a Claud Butler Super Courier from the early 1960’s which I rebuilt.

 

[chris667]

Both the '88 and '89 Raleigh catalogues list "6sp Shimano 14-28" under "Freewheel"; which is pretty inconclusive but could conceivibly suggest either.

14-28 suggests a threaded freewheel, actually, but it would conceivably be an attempt by the manufacturers to cheapen the bike in areas the punters didn't think about. My 91 Horizon had a 6speed freewheel hub when I acquired it. Maillard IIRC. I previously owned a Galaxy of the same year, it had Exage.

I recall a lot of early '90s cars copped flak for poor paint following the shift to water-based(?) on environmental grounds... perhaps similar happend with bikes.

Would not surprise me. I volunteer for a local wildlife group once a month and the last time I was there I took an old fence down. It is obvious how much better preserved much older tannalised wood is than newer stuff with more "ecological" preservatives. Is it really better to have a less harmful treatment for wood if you have to replace it every five years? I would love to know the answer.

 

[GuyBoden]

Thanks - what do you prefer about the centre-pulls?

I think that Centre Pull brakes are easier to setup and stop better, especially with good modern blocks. Canti brakes will give more clearance for bigger tyres and mudguards, but setting them up, so they brake well should be considered as a complex art form IMO.

 

[biggs682]

They are out there just keep looking

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1025456075274827/

 

[Gunk]

but setting them up, so they brake well should be considered as a complex art form IMO.

You are right, but once set up with decent pads they are very effective.

 

[wafter]

Cheers all

Good shout as both Clubman and Royals are well capable machines

Indeed; although since this is a strictly self-indulgent, heart driven escapade I'm drawn mostly to the high-end stuff; and particularly to the aesthetic of the Classic.

Centrepulls are really the predecessor of modern dual pivot side pull calipers . The early side pull callipers were only single pivot so were not particularly effective.

A decent pair of centrepulls with modern pads still work really well. Below is a fully restored set on a Claud Butler Super Courier from the early 1960’s which I rebuilt.

View attachment 703840

View attachment 703841

View attachment 703842

Nice work! Would I be correct in thinking that there was a period where these effectively disappeared before "dual pivot" stuff came in, and the market was left with side-pulls? Seems that this format of caliper went the way of the dodo about the same time that market dominance transferred from the European brands to Shimano around the late '80s.

Actually, perhaps that's the reason the Randonneur has cantis; since this bike seems to highlight the demacation point between European and Japanese finishing kit; at least in the touring bikes.. and I don't think Shimano have ever made centre-pull calipers and maybe going back to side-pull was considered a retrograde step.

My experience in this field is a bit sketchy and I've never owned anything with centre-pull brakes or cantis.. I've got reasonable experience of most other stuff though - the Routier has cheap Weinmann (copy?) side-pull calipers, the Boardman dual-pivot 5800 105s calipers (and before it cack Tektro side-pulls), the C-line has Brompton's own brand dual-pivot calipers, the Fuji has Tektro mini-Vs and the Genesis has its sublime R7000 hydro disks.

Despite being the worst on all bikes I own, I find the brakes on the Router acceptable now that I've put some ally rims on it, so anything superior to this should be perfectly adiquate for the odd nostalgia-fuelled, fine-weather waft

14-28 suggests a threaded freewheel, actually, but it would conceivably be an attempt by the manufacturers to cheapen the bike in areas the punters didn't think about. My 91 Horizon had a 6speed freewheel hub when I acquired it. Maillard IIRC. I previously owned a Galaxy of the same year, it had Exage.

Would not surprise me. I volunteer for a local wildlife group once a month and the last time I was there I took an old fence down. It is obvious how much better preserved much older tannalised wood is than newer stuff with more "ecological" preservatives. Is it really better to have a less harmful treatment for wood if you have to replace it every five years? I would love to know the answer.

Thanks - the literature does also suggest Maillard 600CX hubs; although I couldn't find reference to any rear examples to confirm what standard they were built to. Considering their European and Shimano evidently pioneered the freehub standard I'd concur that the Routier had a freewheel setup out of the box.

I hear you on the environmental thing; however sadly I guess another angle to consider is improper disposal. Creosote is probably alright when used correctly - the problem coming when people start dumping it / disposing improperly of stuff treated with it. Not that I'd advocate for its use, but Asbestos is another good example - fine if undisturbed; potentially fatal if improperly handled.

I think that Centre Pull brakes are easier to setup and stop better, especially with good modern blocks. Canti brakes will give more clearance for bigger tyres and mudguards, but setting them up, so they brake well should be considered as a complex art form IMO.

lol - cheers! I see the Classic comes with mudguards so clearance can't be too bad; although I also see that 1 1/8" / 28mm tyres were standard and it makes me wonder whether anything much fatter would give clearance issues..

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1025456075274827/

Ta - saw that earlier and tbh were it closer I'd probably have had it. That said as nice as these seem to be, it's not quite what I'm after. I have sent the link to a mate who lives fairly close to the seller; whom I'm trying to push towards a tourer as I think it'd be right up his street (and would perhaps open the door to a bit of touring!).

 

[Jameshow]

In my experience, I think the majority of Raleigh 531 steel frames I've had from the 1980's have a very similar ride quality. I prefer Centre pull not canti brakes.

So, the Clubman would be one of my fav looking Raleigh 531 bicycles for vintage touring.

View attachment 703831
(What's wrong with the picture is that the bottom of the drop handlebars should really be horizontal.)

Nope the top should be flat - get with it!! 🤣🤣🤣

 

[T4tomo]

Nope the top should be flat - get with it!! 🤣🤣🤣

sooo very very wrong!