Throttle

[classic33]

You are correct. https://assets.publishing.service.g...nt_data/file/369752/consultation-document.pdf



It's my last day before I start work again. I've taken the decorations down. Tidied the front garden. Put my work phone and laptop on charge. Now I'm reduced aimlessly googling e-bike legislation that I'm not much interested in.

You could be doing worse.

 

[bonzobanana]

BS sorry, utter BS mine is rated at 250 w and is legal

Is that a pre 2017 ebike or a more recent type approved model? 200W is continuous though, many ebikes are rated to 250W and consume more than 700W at times, climbing hills. The legislation is a terrible mess and makes little sense. A typical 250W geared hub motor with pedal assist is quite happy to consume over 400W for reasonable time periods. Both mid-drive and geared hub motors can easily over-heat when pushed so their continuous rating is well below their peak value. There was a recent mid-drive motor that only allowed for 12 seconds of peak wattage but it was extremely high wattage. Even direct drive hub motors which have lots of surface area to dissipate heat and have no internal gearing to create friction and heat can still over-heat with a long period of hill climbing. So this 250W continuous rating probably allows for significantly over 250W in real world use. A 36V battery with a discharge rate of something like 24A is not 250W (24x36=864W) yet many legal shop bought mid-drive ebikes are consuming that for momentary peak power and not much below it for sustained output up hills until thermal protection kicks in. It wouldn't be difficult to show many so called legal ebikes actually are higher wattage overall than many so called illegal models.

The important thing seems to be not have an ebike that looks like a motorbike as they seem to be the most likely to be crushed and don't go around at 30mph assisted without peddling. The main criteria seems to be assistance speed yet as a pedestrian you are much safer with a ebike going up a hill at 30mph assisted than a ebike going downhill at 30mph unassisted. The first will stop quickly if they have to and the second will likely have a long braking period, plenty of time to do damage to me if hit. The EU legislation just seems to be a bit of a farce designed to make it more difficult for standard world ebikes to be sold in Europe to protect EU industry as most of the world uses twist and go throttles with ebikes which is simple, reliable, safe and cheap.

 

[AFCB261995]

And so ... if I've understood correctly ... if a bike has a twist-and-go throttle that goes > 6kmh it might still be an EPAC - if the type has gone through type approval 168/2013 as an EPAC.

But on the other hand, if it has a >6kmh throttle and has not gone through type approval as an EPAC, then it's not an EPAC. It may be a moped or an un-approved vehicle of some sort.

Izzat right?

Hello! And not quite. Any e bike, whether it’s pedal assist only or if twist and go etc, is classed as an EPAC provided that they meet the EPAC rules, mentioned in point 1-3 of my last paragraph. They are
1. electric assist cuts off at 15.5 mph
2. 250w motor
3. must have pedals that are capable of propelling

These are the only rules that affect whether an e-bike is an EPAC or not. Nothing to do with type approval, or whether you decide to have a full twist and go throttle or not. These three are the only rules. If an e-bike meets these then it’s mechanically and legally an EPAC however..

As an extra safety measure, EPACs With a twist and go throttle have to be ”type approved” in order to be FULLY ROAD LEGAL/LEGAL TO USE AND RIDE. Type approval Doesn’t affect what class of vehicle an E-bike is. So in effect, a Twist and go EPAC ,without type approval, is still classed legally and mechanically an EPAC, but is ILLEGAL to USE on the road

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Hello! And not quite. Any e bike, whether it’s pedal assist only or if twist and go etc, is classed as an EPAC provided that they meet the EPAC rules, mentioned in point 1-3 of my last paragraph. They are
1. electric assist cuts off at 15.5 mph
2. 250w motor
3. must have pedals that are capable of propelling

These are the only rules that affect whether an e-bike is an EPAC or not. Nothing to do with type approval, or whether you decide to have a full twist and go throttle or not. These three are the only rules. If an e-bike meets these then it’s mechanically and legally an EPAC however..

As an extra safety measure, EPACs With a twist and go throttle have to be ”type approved” in order to be FULLY ROAD LEGAL/LEGAL TO USE AND RIDE. Type approval Doesn’t affect what class of vehicle an E-bike is. So in effect, a Twist and go EPAC ,without type approval, is still classed legally and mechanically an EPAC, but is ILLEGAL to USE on the road

So you are saying that it is CLASSIFIES as an EPAC if it complies with those 3 rules
but it is only legal to use if it has NO throttle - but if it has a throttle it can be made legal by type approval?

OK - I can believe that - but do you have a reference to something from the DVLA or government so I can quote it if anyone else asks here or elsewhere?

thanks

 

[classic33]

Hello! And not quite. Any e bike, whether it’s pedal assist only or if twist and go etc, is classed as an EPAC provided that they meet the EPAC rules, mentioned in point 1-3 of my last paragraph. They are
1. electric assist cuts off at 15.5 mph
2. 250w motor
3. must have pedals that are capable of propelling

These are the only rules that affect whether an e-bike is an EPAC or not. Nothing to do with type approval, or whether you decide to have a full twist and go throttle or not. These three are the only rules. If an e-bike meets these then it’s mechanically and legally an EPAC however..

As an extra safety measure, EPACs With a twist and go throttle have to be ”type approved” in order to be FULLY ROAD LEGAL/LEGAL TO USE AND RIDE. [B[Type approval Doesn’t affect what class of vehicle an E-bike is[/B]. So in effect, a Twist and go EPAC ,without type approval, is still classed legally and mechanically an EPAC, but is ILLEGAL to USE on the road

That's at odds with one manufacturer has posted on here, in this thread, and elsewhere.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

That's at odds with one manufacturer has posted on here, in this thread, and elsewhere.

I agree
but in effect it is the same as I thought
i.e. all the 250W and cut off stuff that I thought
but having a throttle still makes it an EPAC
but it is still illegal to ride on the rode unless it either
a) doesn;t have a throttle
or
b) has a throttle PLUS type approval

hence the same in effect

still like to see some evidence but in reality it makes no difference

 

[classic33]

I agree
but in effect it is the same as I thought
i.e. all the 250W and cut off stuff that I thought
but having a throttle still makes it an EPAC
but it is still illegal to ride on the rode unless it either
a) doesn;t have a throttle
or
b) has a throttle PLUS type approval

hence the same in effect

still like to see some evidence but in reality it makes no difference

Go back to #42 & #90 for one manufacturers take on it.

A bit inconsistent, across the different forums though, on what's being posted.

 

[bonzobanana]

It's still fully legal to use today a ebike sold before 2017 with a twist and go throttle if it was legal under the previous ebike legislation and you can legally have a ebike today which you ghost pedal, i.e. no resistance which gives you a full throttle control as long as you turn the cranks even with no resistance. No reason not to have a twist and go throttle if you want one you just have to work around the dire EU legislation.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

It's still fully legal to use today a ebike sold before 2017 with a twist and go throttle if it was legal under the previous ebike legislation and you can legally have a ebike today which you ghost pedal, i.e. no resistance which gives you a full throttle control as long as you turn the cranks even with no resistance. No reason not to have a twist and go throttle if you want one you just have to work around the dire EU legislation.

The 2016 legislation also includes a power limit of 200W compared to the EU version of 250W
I used to have one that was pre-2016 version - actually 180W - and it makes a big difference!

Of course - I have no idea how they would check if they stopped you
or even if they would know there was a difference!

 

[AFCB261995]

And so ... if I've understood correctly ... if a bike has a twist-and-go throttle that goes > 6kmh it might still be an EPAC - if the type has gone through type approval 168/2013 as an EPAC.

But on the other hand, if it has a >6kmh throttle and has not gone through type approval as an EPAC, then it's not an EPAC. It may be a moped or an un-approved vehicle of some sort.

Izzat right?

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

So you are saying that it is CLASSIFIES as an EPAC if it complies with those 3 rules
but it is only legal to use if it has NO throttle - but if it has a throttle it can be made legal by type approval?

OK - I can believe that - but do you have a reference to something from the DVLA or government so I can quote it if anyone else asks here or elsewhere?

thanks

That's at odds with one manufacturer has posted on here, in this thread, and elsewhere.

Yes to your first point but no to your second. With regards to second line of your reply, I probably should have explained this point, but there is a 6kmh exception for the throttle. If the EPAC has a throttle that is limited to 6kmh when used on its own without pedalling, then the EPAC is both fully road legal (Can be ridden anywhere that cyclists can ride), And EXEMPT FROM TYPE APPROVAL. If the EPAC has a Twist and go throttle, which when used on its own can Go up to 15.5 mph without pedalling, then the EPAC will have to be type approved as well, in order to be fully road legal. Under this circumstance, if the EPAC gets type approval, then it is fully road legal (Can be ridden anywhere that cyclists can ride) However, If it does not have type approval, then it is still classified as an EPAC bike, as it still falls within EPAC Legislation, but is NOT FULLY ROAD LEGAL (You can only ride off road and private land). There are e bikes like this on the market where they have a 15.5 mph throttle, but because they can’t get them type approved, they sell the throttle as an accessory and tell you to only use the throttle when you are off road or your own property

So to be clear the fundamental law is if you have EPAC legal bike, with a Throttle that can power you up to 6kmh without pedalling, it can then it can be ridden Anywhere a normal pedal bike can ride, without being type approved. However if you have an EPAC legal bike, with a Throttle that can power you up to 15.5 mph without pedalling, then it can be ridden Anywhere a normal pedal bike can ride, provided it is type approved as well.

For clarity here are the EPAC laws from the government website. Please not The 6kmh thumb throttle law is included in en15194 legislation, not in the link below, which I will post tommorow. The link below is Epac laws

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

Hooe u all have a good day!

Karl

So you are saying that it is CLASSIFIES as an EPAC if it complies with those 3 rules
but it is only legal to use if it has NO throttle - but if it has a throttle it can be made legal by type approval?

OK - I can believe that - but do you have a reference to something from the DVLA or government so I can quote it if anyone else asks here or elsewhere?

thanks

 

[classic33]

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules





Yes to your first point but no to your second. With regards to second line of your reply, I probably should have explained this point, but there is a 6kmh exception for the throttle. If the EPAC has a throttle that is limited to 6kmh when used on its own without pedalling, then the EPAC is both fully road legal (Can be ridden anywhere that cyclists can ride), And EXEMPT FROM TYPE APPROVAL. If the EPAC has a Twist and go throttle, which when used on its own can Go up to 15.5 mph without pedalling, then the EPAC will have to be type approved as well, in order to be fully road legal. Under this circumstance, if the EPAC gets type approval, then it is fully road legal (Can be ridden anywhere that cyclists can ride) However, If it does not have type approval, then it is still classified as an EPAC bike, as it still falls within EPAC Legislation, but is NOT FULLY ROAD LEGAL (You can only ride off road and private land). There are e bikes like this on the market where they have a 15.5 mph throttle, but because they can’t get them type approved, they sell the throttle as an accessory and tell you to only use the throttle when you are off road or your own property

So to be clear the fundamental law is if you have EPAC legal bike, with a Throttle that can power you up to 6kmh without pedalling, it can then it can be ridden Anywhere a normal pedal bike can ride, without being type approved. However if you have an EPAC legal bike, with a Throttle that can power you up to 15.5 mph without pedalling, then it can be ridden Anywhere a normal pedal bike can ride, provided it is type approved as well.

For clarity here are the EPAC laws from the government website. Please not The 6kmh thumb throttle law is included in en15194 legislation, not in the link below, which I will post tommorow. The link below is Epac laws

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

Hooe u all have a good day!

Karl

The DVSA are wrong in what they have said then?

If it goes through the MVSA, and gets type approval, it is now classified as a moped. A moped that can't be ridden in cycle lanes, on cycle paths or shared use paths. The basis idea is that the motor provides some assistance, not the sole motive power.

I can get a a small jet engine, aftermarket accessory, and stick it on the rear of what I ride. It'd be fun, but I'd be restricted on where it could be used. I also doubt the legality of it, just because it was purchased separately. Even though it's not physically driving any wheel.

There's also the age limit, 14 for an e-assist bike, under EN15194, in the UK.

 

[numbnuts]

It's still fully legal to use today a ebike sold before 2017 with a twist and go throttle if it was legal under the previous ebike legislation and you can legally have a ebike today which you ghost pedal, i.e. no resistance which gives you a full throttle control as long as you turn the cranks even with no resistance. No reason not to have a twist and go throttle if you want one you just have to work around the dire EU legislation.

Correct.....can we now move on with or without a throttel

 

[AFCB261995]

The DVSA are wrong in what they have said then?

If it goes through the MVSA, and gets type approval, it is now classified as a moped. A moped that can't be ridden in cycle lanes, on cycle paths or shared use paths. The basis idea is that the motor provides some assistance, not the sole motive power.

I can get a a small jet engine, aftermarket accessory, and stick it on the rear of what I ride. It'd be fun, but I'd be restricted on where it could be used. I also doubt the legality of it, just because it was purchased separately. Even though it's not physically driving any wheel.

There's also the age limit, 14 for an e-assist bike, under EN15194, in the UK.

I think I get your angle now and why you think the way you do. To be clear, it’s Called a 250w low powered moped in name only, the Class of vehicle is an EPAC, as it meets the epac rules. The dvsa test it specifically to see if it meets the EPAC rules. In the msva inspection manual, it says “a sub group of low powered moped that meets the criteria laid down in the 1983 Epac regulations as amended by is in 2015” Also if you read en15194 it gives an exemption for the 6kmh thumb throttle from being type approved At all, as this is known as “start assist mode” (start assist mode can be walk mode or 6kmh limited throttle) Very luckily, I have managed to find the full document en15194, it’s on the link immediately below. It might take a while to load

106.38.59.21:8080/userfiles/4ed4004e06bb468cae5fc74d866cf308/files/teckSolution/2020/06/BS%20EN15194-2017%20Cycles_Electricallypowerassistedcycles_EPACBicycle.pdf


Also, i hate to be nit picky or anything so I hope it not taken the wrong way, but the age limit of 14 is not part of en15194 but part of our own road traffic laws in this country. The reason I mention this is because en15194, which we merged with in 2015, only gives technical requirements, not rules on who and at what age can ride EPACS. Who and at what age can ride EPACS is up to our own road traffic laws in this country, separate from en15194. This is proven In the link below, as it clearly indicates the the age limit for EPACS is part of the uk road traffic act 1988

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/32

on a side note I do wish the government would speak up and give a bit more clarity on this issue!

 

[classic33]

I think I get your angle now and why you think the way you do. To be clear, it’s Called a 250w low powered moped in name only, the Class of vehicle is an EPAC, as it meets the epac rules. The dvsa test it specifically to see if it meets the EPAC rules. In the msva inspection manual, it says “a sub group of low powered moped that meets the criteria laid down in the 1983 Epac regulations as amended by is in 2015” Also if you read en15194 it gives an exemption for the 6kmh thumb throttle from being type approved At all, as this is known as “start assist mode” (start assist mode can be walk mode or 6kmh limited throttle) Very luckily, I have managed to find the full document en15194, it’s on the link immediately below. It might take a while to load

106.38.59.21:8080/userfiles/4ed4004e06bb468cae5fc74d866cf308/files/teckSolution/2020/06/BS%20EN15194-2017%20Cycles_Electricallypowerassistedcycles_EPACBicycle.pdf


Also, i hate to be nit picky or anything so I hope it not taken the wrong way, but the age limit of 14 is not part of en15194 but part of our own road traffic laws in this country. The reason I mention this is because en15194, which we merged with in 2015, only gives technical requirements, not rules on who and at what age can ride EPACS. Who and at what age can ride EPACS is up to our own road traffic laws in this country, separate from en15194. This is proven In the link below, as it clearly indicates the the age limit for EPACS is part of the uk road traffic act 1988

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/32

on a side note I do wish the government would speak up and give a bit more clarity on this issue!

Most of "my angle" is an explanation of the rules as given by one manufacturer on here, and elsewhere. With examples of the paperwork, as returned by the DVSA, by them used to show what they were talking about.

Also speaking as someone who tried, before 2015, to put a cycle through the SVA(As it was then) as it fell outside the then current rules and regulations.

 

[AFCB261995]

Most of "my angle" is an explanation of the rules as given by one manufacturer on here, and elsewhere. With examples of the paperwork, as returned by the DVSA, by them used to show what they were talking about.

Also speaking as someone who tried, before 2015, to put a cycle through the SVA(As it was then) as it fell outside the then current rules and regulations.

Out of interest who is the manufacturer in question and elsewhere And could I see i see a copy of paperwork in the comments section On this thread? Without meaning to be demeaning, paperwork is worlds away from what Statuary law says (paperwork could easily be edited to make it look a certain way) I get the feeing you have heard word of mouth rather than what the rule of law actually says, which you have to be careful about as there is a lot of missinformation around. But what I am saying is that regardless of word of mouth or hear say, the law clearly allows a 6kmh thumb throttle to be exempt from type approval and fully road legal, courtesy of en15194 (which is a lawful legal document) And the law also allows for a twist and go EPAC to be fully road legal, provided it is type approved. Courtesy of the rules on the government website and on legislation.gov.uk

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules