The rugby

[AndyRM]

I also think Scotland deserve their third place. There’s not a huge amount between the bottom four, but a big gap with the top two.

England lost it after 90 seconds yesterday, any confidence was completely shattered. This is partly the coaches but really the capacity of the players on the field to react. There are a couple of players who look out of their depth but not sure who is better at the moment.

We only finished 4th behind England last year because of our inferior points difference, same in 2021 and 2020. Scoring tries has been a problem for as long as I can remember.

 

[Alex321]

Apologies. You're correct.
France or New Zealand are the likely first knockout opposition.
Still a brutally unfair draw, though.

Yeah. The two worst teams in this year's 6 nations (Wales & England) definitely have much easier groups than the other 4.

I know Italy are going to finish bottom, but on every measure except actually converting their chances, they were ahead of Wales on Saturday, and looked much more exciting with the ball.

 

[AndyRM]

Yeah. The two worst teams in this year's 6 nations (Wales & England) definitely have much easier groups than the other 4.

I know Italy are going to finish bottom, but on every measure except actually converting their chances, they were ahead of Wales on Saturday, and looked much more exciting with the ball.

You reckon? Australia and Fiji are in with Wales, and Georgia aren't pushovers. Argentina and Samoa are decent too, as are Japan.

Don't really think there are any easy groups to be honest!

 

[DaveReading]

Still a brutally unfair draw, though.

Unfair? You mean it was fixed?

 

[Dogtrousers]

RWC draws always end up with one or more Groups of Death, no matter how the organsers try to slice and dice it with second place playoffs and so forth. It's all based on World Rugby Ranking points and the cookie tends to crumble in unusual ways. I remember that Wales were terrible in the lead up to RWC 2015 and slumped in the rankings, thus getting into the same group as England and RSA as mere cannon-fodder before winning at Twickenham and effectively knocking England out of the competition. The sneaky rotters.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

Unfair? You mean it was fixed?

No!
I mean it's unfair.
The draw was made so long ago that it's unreflective of current standings.
World Rugby have promised that this will not happen again.

 

[Alex321]

You reckon? Australia and Fiji are in with Wales, and Georgia aren't pushovers. Argentina and Samoa are decent too, as are Japan.

Don't really think there are any easy groups to be honest!

I'm not saying their group is easy exactly, but it is easier than France or Italy, who are together in with NZ. Or than Ireland or Scotland, who are also together, in with South Africa.

Australia are arguable the least strong of the tri-Nations, and while Fiji & Georgia are not going to be push-overs, they

 

[AndyRM]

Other than a couple of pastings, Australia haven't been far off the pace in recent matches. Not to be underestimated.

The difference for me is that the "larger" nations can effectively bring on a completely new pack after 60 mins. I'd limit that because it gives the sides without that depth or quality very little chance.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

The difference for me is that the "larger" nations can effectively bring on a completely new pack after 60 mins. I'd limit that because it gives the sides without that depth or quality very little chance.

8 substitutions?

Andrew Porter played the full 80 minutes yesterday.

There is an argument to be made that the bigger players can train for intensity rather than stamina and that may be looked at again in light of concussions. I'm not sure that "unfairness" is very convincing.

 

[AndyRM]

8 substitutions?

Andrew Porter played the full 80 minutes yesterday.

There is an argument to be made that the bigger players can train for intensity rather than stamina and that may be looked at again in light of concussions. I'm not sure that "unfairness" is very convincing.

I'm not saying it always happens, but it does a lot, and the benches of the smaller nations generally aren't up to much. I didn't say it was unfair, just that perhaps something could be done to even things up a bit. I'm a rugby fan and want to see a competitive 80 minutes (or 100 if you're as picky as Wayne Barnes). But there are more things that annoy me, the put in at scrums for example has become beyond a joke. Line outs are rarely straight either.

Porter had a great game yesterday so keeping him on made sense, plus Ireland had already used all their subs and an extra one.

Despite being thrashed, I thoroughly enjoyed the game. Although I was very confused about the ball thing from the early line-out; I don't think I've ever seen something as bizarre as that. It's not like it makes a difference, as it would in cricket.

 

[Dogtrousers]

Although I was very confused about the ball thing from the early line-out; I don't think I've ever seen something as bizarre as that. It's not like it makes a difference, as it would in cricket.

I remember long, long ago, back in the days of Sella and Blanco, France scored a typically brilliant try at Twickenham... Having used the wrong ball for a quick throw. Cue much grumbling.

At least, my memory assures me that that is true. I may have made it up.

 

[T4tomo]

No!
I mean it's unfair.
The draw was made so long ago that it's unreflective of current standings.
World Rugby have promised that this will not happen again.

its always going to be slightly unbalanced as you have to draw a point in time, and most teams predominantly play the same teams in their "main" competition, so rankings are always subjective. England and Wales did not deserve to be in the top 4 pot on current form, and have arguably drawn the two weaker teams from pot 2 (Japan and Aus)

Its the teams in pot 3 that are the "unlucky" ones as you then get paired with2 "heavyweight" nations in a top 2 go through pool. i.e Scotland, a top 8 team on current form, but paired with SA and Ire, Argentina, to a lesser extent as they have got Eng and japan, lightest "heavyweight" pairing, and can Italy complain about being in pot 3 when they finish bottom of 6N every year - I say no - but yes they have a very tough draw in NZ and Fra. and to round up the 3rd tier seed Fiji will be relishing a crack at Wales & Aus.

What has actually worked out well is the geographical balance, which I don't believe was preordained like the football world cup, where south american and european teams are deliberately spread around groups.
So you have the big 4 southern hemisphere teams in separate groups, the 6 nations spread 2,2,1,1, across the groups and the 3 south sea island nations all in separate groups.

 

[rualexander]

i.e Scotland, a top 8 team on current form, but paired with SA and Ire,

Scotland are ranked 5th in the World Rugby rankings

 

[Dogtrousers]

I've just had a look at the groups to remind myself.

They are indeed a bit wonky with all of the top five ranked teams in groups A (3&2) and B(1,4 &5). And then in the QFs winner A plays runner up B and vice versa. So the A/B side of the draw is distinctly deathly.

In the group rounds, the lucky winners are Wales who, if every single match goes with current ranking, will get a QF spot despite being ranked 9th. The unlucky losers are Scotland who (if everything goes with current rankings) will not get a QF despite being ranked 5th at the moment.

In the quarters, the lucky winners are Australia who (if every match etc...) will face Argentina and England and Wales who face each other (and avoid the Big Boys from groups A and B) Meanwhile the other two quarters will (if every match ...) be contrastingly hard: Ireland v NZ and France v RSA.

In the semis, still assuming that everything goes with rankings, luck suddenly runs out for England and Australia and they have to face the music, being up against France and Ireland respectively.

So England and Australia have a relatively easy path to the semis. Of course, nothing's given. England aren't by any means guaranteed to beat Argentina or Wales and don't have the greatest track records against either or those. But compared to the annihilation-fest in groups A and B it's relatively easy. So if Borthwick has a slow acting magic spell and can get things together in time for the semis ... who knows.

But not every match will go with ranking so that's all a bit hypothetical.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

I'm not saying it always happens

I can't think of a single time that a time replaced the entire pack.

the benches of the smaller nations generally aren't up to much

The teams of the smaller nations generally aren't up to much

Despite being thrashed

I watched the game. I didn't think Scotland were thrashed at all.
Up until 60 minutes it was heart in mouth stuff. Even then, 20 minutes in such a crazy game was more than long enough for a final twist.

Given a choice of which coach to be facing into a crunch World Cup game I'd rather be Townsend than Farrell.

There was a lot to learn on Sunday for Scotland, definite things to work on and improve. Much less for Ireland.
Thinking on the pitch for one. The disasterous lineout early on and the inability to capitalise on a flanker throwing the ball into the lineout are just two examples.

None of that means they were thrashed.