The Road Maniac and Pathetic Punishment Thread

[Bristolian]

I was taught to drive by my Dad who was a RoSPA observer. If I did anything wrong he'd smack me round the knuckles with a steel rule.

After a lesson my hands were bloody tatters, but I passed first go and breezed through the class 4, 3, and then 1 courses in the Dibble.

Ha, I know that feeling. My IAM Observer did the same thing if I drove with my left hand resting on the gearstick. I'm a fast learner though - he only did it three times

 

[Alex321]

Especially the Japanese!
Alex 321 seems to think I don't understand the modern driving test, well I passed my car test back in 1981, so a fair few years ago.

I only suggested you don't know what they mean by "making progress".

Which was because you seemed to think that it encouraged bad driving. Which it doesn't, and indeed most of the things pointed out as bad driving would cause you to fail the test.

But last year I took my motorcycle test, and passed first time, this is far more rigourous and testing than the motor test, or at least as it was in 1981.
Ok admittedly driving a motorbike is different to a car, but my observations that there are many drivers with bad habits far outweigh the half decent ones.
I would suggest, they outnumber the decent ones , particularly the younger drivers.

I believe you are wrong on this. It is the bad drivers which you notice. The majority are driving reasonably, and you just don't notice them because that is (a it should be) the norm. I am using "you" here in a generic sense, not meaning you personally.

 

[Drago]

Be a professional driver and run a red light in a bus and kill an innocent pedestrian and escape with effectively no actual punishment beyond a 5 year ban.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c15qwwwpv88o

 

[icowden]

Be a professional driver and run a red light in a bus and kill an innocent pedestrian and escape with effectively no actual punishment beyond a 5 year ban.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c15qwwwpv88o

You must have read a different article to me. The one I am reading states that he was given a 24 month prison sentence (suspended for 16 months), 240 hours of unpaid work, 10 rehabilitation days, a disqualification from driving for 5 years with the attendant loss of his job.

What sentence would have satisfied you? Hanging from the nearest tree?

 

[Alex321]

You must have read a different article to me. The one I am reading states that he was given a 24 month prison sentence (suspended for 16 months), 240 hours of unpaid work, 10 rehabilitation days, a disqualification from driving for 5 years with the attendant loss of his job.

What sentence would have satisfied you? Hanging from the nearest tree?

I suspect he thinks that the prison sentence should not have been suspended (and maybe should have been longer).

A lot of people regard a suspended prison sentence as no real punishment.

 

[icowden]

Are you OK? Not like you to be contrary.

Not being contrary. Just pointing out that your summation of the article seemed to miss out that he had actually been sentenced to a number of different punishments and rehabilitations. I'm not sure what outcome you wanted? What do you think would be fair and just? Clearly you disagree with the sentence, so what does the law according to Drago look like?

My personal view is that constantly challenging the sentencing which was done according to the guidelines isn't helpful. Understanding *why* the sentence was given is far more useful and gives an understanding into the nuances and difficulties of the law. If you want punitive justice with very little common sense, that nice Mr Trump is your man.

 

[mjr]

My personal view is that constantly challenging the sentencing which was done according to the guidelines isn't helpful. Understanding *why* the sentence was given is far more useful and gives an understanding into the nuances and difficulties of the law.

Please, explain why the guidelines let motorists off lightly and why that's OK.

They're incomprehensible and disagreeing with them is a legitimate part of challenging them.

 

[icowden]

Please, explain why the guidelines let motorists off lightly and why that's OK.

How can you seek to explain something that isn't true?

In this case, the guidelines were followed and the Judge or Magistrate gave what they felt was the appropriate amount of punishment under the guidelines provided. The guy lost his job and his license for 5 years. He isn't a threat to other people so his jail time is relatively short, and it's more cost effective for him to be out with an ankle tag than being paid for by the tax payer. He will have a criminal record for the rest of his life which will affect his employment prospects. He also has to show restitution by completing community service and voluntary work.

Please explain what *you* think the sentence should be and how you can justify it taking into account the likelihood of the person reoffending and the cost of incarceration.

Obviously your opinion carries far more weight than that of the Lady Chief Justice of England and Wales, Lord Justice William Davis, Judge Simon Drew KC, Dr Elaine Freer Barrister and Teaching Officer in Law at Cambridge University, Lord Justice Tim Holroyde, Jo King JP, District Judge Stephen Leake, the Honourable Mrs Justice May, Chief Constable Rob Nixon QPM, Stephen Parkinson DPP, Judge Amanda Rippon, Johanna Robinson National Adviser to thr Welsh Govt on Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence, Beverley Thompson OBE, Mr Justice Mark Wall and Richard Wright KC.

Clearly this panel of Judges, Barristers and experts can't be expected to give proper guidance. What we need are some people sitting at computers to use their opinions to create some proper sentencing.

 

[grldtnr]

How can you seek to explain something that isn't true?

In this case, the guidelines were followed and the Judge or Magistrate gave what they felt was the appropriate amount of punishment under the guidelines provided. The guy lost his job and his license for 5 years. He isn't a threat to other people so his jail time is relatively short, and it's more cost effective for him to be out with an ankle tag than being paid for by the tax payer. He will have a criminal record for the rest of his life which will affect his employment prospects. He also has to show restitution by completing community service and voluntary work.

Please explain what *you* think the sentence should be and how you can justify it taking into account the likelihood of the person reoffending and the cost of incarceration.

Obviously your opinion carries far more weight than that of the Lady Chief Justice of England and Wales, Lord Justice William Davis, Judge Simon Drew KC, Dr Elaine Freer Barrister and Teaching Officer in Law at Cambridge University, Lord Justice Tim Holroyde, Jo King JP, District Judge Stephen Leake, the Honourable Mrs Justice May, Chief Constable Rob Nixon QPM, Stephen Parkinson DPP, Judge Amanda Rippon, Johanna Robinson National Adviser to thr Welsh Govt on Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence, Beverley Thompson OBE, Mr Justice Mark Wall and Richard Wright KC.

Clearly this panel of Judges, Barristers and experts can't be expected to give proper guidance. What we need are some people sitting at computers to use their opinions to create some proper sentencing.

Well, Ok , it seems a fair & proper response, even if many find the sentence lenient, it wasn't a premeditated murder, or manslaughter, but the victim was killed,
It wasn't an 'accident' as unforseen..what it was ,gross negligence, the driver was a PSV driver, driving a bus, so therefore one would expect them to drive to the highest standards, this does preclude running red lights in an ungainly large vehicle.
He wasn't paying proper attention to what he was doing, or had blatant disregard to the meaning of Red lights, presumably this was a pedestrian controlled crossing.
I can't say if there were any mitigating circumstances, but again a case of 'bad' driving, more proof of my belief that the standard of driving in this country is rapidly deteriorating, would this driver behave any better behind the wheel of a car?
It seems to me that drivers think a little rule bending here and there is of minor consequence, in this incident it wasn't.
Doubtless you are aware of the rules of the highway code pertaining to the lighting phases of traffic lights, you can only proceed if it's safe to if it's green , a single Yellow means stop, and Red is a mandatory stop.
The driver was behind the wheel of a bus, not exactly a svelte racing machine, if he was paying attention to what he was doing, then he had ample time to stop the bus.
Banning him from driving is entirely the right thing to do, as he very likely not be able to take up a driving job ever again.

 

[Drago]

Wilfull gross negligence at that.

This isn't the thread to argue otherwise. If you think road killers are punished adequately or unfairly then go and start a thread of your own to that effect and stop polluting mine.

A remimder for those that need it as to what this thread is about...

As it says on the tin - a handy compartment to store all our examples of loons that get away with a derisory punishment.

 

[Alex321]

How can you seek to explain something that isn't true?

In this case, the guidelines were followed and the Judge or Magistrate gave what they felt was the appropriate amount of punishment under the guidelines provided. The guy lost his job and his license for 5 years. He isn't a threat to other people so his jail time is relatively short, and it's more cost effective for him to be out with an ankle tag than being paid for by the tax payer. He will have a criminal record for the rest of his life which will affect his employment prospects. He also has to show restitution by completing community service and voluntary work.

There are only a relatively few jobs for which he will "have a criminal record for the rest of his life". For most jobs, the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act means he won't have to declare it after 10 years.

 

[grldtnr]

There are only a relatively few jobs for which he will "have a criminal record for the rest of his life". For most jobs, the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act means he won't have to declare it after 10 years.

Not the same thing is it, Declaring it , and being on record, it will be somewhere on record , and whilst not common knowledge , any prospective employer can likely find it.
Even if it is struck off,or rescinded , and regarded spent it's sure to be taken into consideration.
Employers want whiter than white regards your CV.

 

[Alex321]

Not the same thing is it, Declaring it , and being on record, it will be somewhere on record , and whilst not common knowledge , any prospective employer can likely find it.
Even if it is struck off,or rescinded , and regarded spent it's sure to be taken into consideration.
Employers want whiter than white regards your CV.

They are breaking the law if they do search for it, or take any notice of it if they find it.

It won't come back in a standard CRB check, only in enhanced checks, and you are only allowed to ask for those for the positions specified in the relevant schedules to the act.

 

[icowden]

A remimder for those that need it as to what this thread is about...

So this thread is to post examples of crimes where you don't think the punishment is appropriate but we aren't allowed to discuss why you think the punishment is inappropriate?

So what's the point then?

Although - if we accept that the Sentencing Council have set appropriate sentencing guidelines, then there aren't any inappropriate sentences, only knee jerk reactions to a two line summary when we don't have the full sentencing remarks to examine to understand why the sentence was set in the way it was set.

 

[Alex321]

Although - if we accept that the Sentencing Council have set appropriate sentencing guidelines, then there aren't any inappropriate sentences, only knee jerk reactions to a two line summary when we don't have the full sentencing remarks to examine to understand why the sentence was set in the way it was set.

Well we know that Drago does not accept that the Sentencing guidelines are anywhere near appropriate.

He would have stronger sentences than the maximums set out in the law for most motoring offences, and the sentencing guidelines usually indicate lesser sentences than the maxima.

And you do get occasions even then where it looks like the sentencing guidelines have not been applied properly. Though of course we never have the full information the magistrate had when handing out the sentence.