The plot thickens

[yello]

Do you read Toto? I've been enjoying that for a while now but many of the references go over my head

Yes, and I have the same problem. Also,I don't always recognise the faces tbh and it takes me a little while to work out who they are.

David Millar comes in for some stick to on the forum too. Generally, regarding Armstrong, you get the impression that for some people that it's not a question of 'if' rather than 'when'. And they're deadly serious, convinced of it. Incredible really. There are those that think he's doped from way early, in the pre cycling triathlon days. He's just carried it on into cycling and USPS and, if it's to be believed, pretty much ensured the other riders on the team did too. This all coming from US based cyclists too. Guys that know more of the scene than we do. And to think that the line 'the French hate Armstrong' is such a mantra!

 

[adam23]

been following this for days now and trying to make my own mind up and just not sure.
is it typical UK mentality that hates success and any one doing well or is it true about what he has done, i have read loads on here and other sites about
every other rider in the 90's been on drugs who knows who might have one.
if it was a rife as they say then his 7 wins were OK cause the other riders on happy pills just still wernt as good who knows.
i got into cycling very recently and then got a road bike after watching the tour so i look at guys like lance in ore of what they have done and can do
on a bike drugs or not i couldn't do it.
i watched the tom Simpson doco on BBC4 last week and thought wow what a great rider and racer until they said he loved to abuse tablets to help him perform
my heart sank and although i thought he was super fit i felt a bit cheated, and then he paid the ultimate price and dropped dead and if we are to judge lance like we all
are (well most of) then Simpson should be as well cause lots of people call him a hero.
if the guys on the cycle news forum are right and lance gets stripped or an asterisk by his name then every other sports man or woman should have there's stripped
and any one who ever tested positive for drugs.
i am still not sure what to believe cause a bit of me hopes its not true but will we ever really know i doubt it tbh

 

[yello]

my heart sank and although i thought he was super fit i felt a bit cheated

I know what you mean adam. I've had the same thing happen to me; not with Tom Simpson but with other riders. I had to adopt a specific attitude to doping to stop me getting too upset by it all. Thing is, cycling has a drug problem. And has had for many years. People can disagree about the scale but there's no doubting that some riders dope. It's in other sports too obviously, but I'm not so interested in them. It just comes as a real smack in the face when the innocent spectator has to deal with the reality of an athletes performance, that they doped.

It's such a complex balance of pressures and expectations. Teams expect results because that's what sponsors want. That gets dumped on the riders shoulders. And they have their own ambitions too. So I do have some sympathy for riders having to compete against a drug culture as well as race but theirs is the ultimate decision. They can say no and race clean. Doping isn't compulsory.

Do keep in mind that you don't have to decide. On doping in cycling generally, or Armstrong specifically. You can stay neutral. In all seriousness, there isn't enough information in the public arena for any one of us to know the truth. All any 'hater' can say is that they've had reason to question the performances, so assessed the facts available, digested the rumour and opinion, and come to a conclusion for themselves... based on whatever criteria they feel works for them. Don't go there if you don't want to. Keep an open mind and just see what happens.

 

[Hont]

All any 'hater' can say is that they've had reason to question the performances

Don't mistake being convinced of doping with "hating". I don't hate Indurain (actually quite respect him), but I'm 100% sure he doped. I don't hate Armstrong because he doped - and he did (it's more than just his performances as a quick search will reveal).

I do, however, strongly dislike him for other actions he has taken.

They can say no and race clean. Doping isn't compulsory

Certainly that appears to be the case now, but in the mid-90s I'm not so sure. The choice was more: dope or don't race. That's one of the reasons why I don't "hate" Indurain or Ullrich, or actually blame Armstrong (until his comeback) for that matter. Everyone doped.

Keep an open mind

I wouldn't. You will only be disappointed.

 

[yello]

Pretty much agree with everything you say there Hont. I use 'hater' more as a term to denote those that question Armstrong as opposed to those that literally hate him. I don't 'hate' him per se, I don't know him, but I certainly count myself among the group labelled as 'haters'.... if that makes sense. Equally, I like Ulrich and would call myself a fan but completely accept that he doped.

I'd like to read about the drug culture that existed in teams during the 90s. I don't think that lid has really been publicly lifted yet has it? Praps still to fresh and some of the players are still around. But maybe someone like David Millar will do it when he retires. I'm sure there's still a reticence to 'spit in the soup'.

 

[Chuffy]

'Hater' is a term coined by the fanboys, as in the immortal phrase "all you haters are just jealous", various flavours (and spellings) of which can be found all over the place online. Personally I'd take it as a badge of honour, but it certainly isn't literal.

Well, not absolutely literal.


Millar? I hope so (and apparently Fat Jan is writing a book too...) but as I think he made a pragmatic decision to rejoin pro-cycling and not name names (as opposed to blowing the lid off, being ignored and being reduced to running a crappy bar somewhere) I wouldn't bank on it being anytime soon.

 

[Chuffy]

but how far back would you go? If Armstrong was condemned as a drug cheat the UCI would have to start tracking back to....Indurain? Hinault? I'm not arguing with your consistency, but, taken to the limit, cycling history would disappear in a cloud of syringes. And what good would it do?

Suggesting the UCI should (or would) look back and start stripping the record books is just silly. That won't happen and you know it. What happened with Armstrong (and his teams) is recent enough to be worthy of investigation and clarification, especially since the man himself chose to come out of retirement and Bruyneel is still an active team manager. Cycling history is a cloud of syringes, but letting sleeping dogs lie (and lie again) is a surefire way of guaranteeing that it's future will be also. If you think that is acceptable and that what was ok for the Pelissier brothers, Coppi, Anquetil and the rest is good enough for modern cycling then we'll just have to agree to differ. If you would prefer that cycling got this persistent monkey off it's back then maybe retrospective investigations like this one are the way to go.

 

[dellzeqq]

Suggesting the UCI should (or would) look back and start stripping the record books is just silly. That won't happen and you know it. What happened with Armstrong (and his teams) is recent enough to be worthy of investigation and clarification, especially since the man himself chose to come out of retirement and Bruyneel is still an active team manager. Cycling history is a cloud of syringes, but letting sleeping dogs lie (and lie again) is a surefire way of guaranteeing that it's future will be also. If you think that is acceptable and that what was ok for the Pelissier brothers, Coppi, Anquetil and the rest is good enough for modern cycling then we'll just have to agree to differ. If you would prefer that cycling got this persistent monkey off it's back then maybe retrospective investigations like this one are the way to go.

I was just asking.........

 

[Crankarm]

http://www.canada.com/health/Steroi...gn=Feed:+canwest/F71+(canada.com+Sports+News)

Will Jeff Novitzky FDA Special Agent and former IRS bloodhound snare Armstrong? He got Marion Jones who was stripped of her 5 gold medals.

 

[yello]

Will Jeff Novitzky FDA Special Agent and former IRS bloodhound snare Armstrong?

LA might well get tangled up in the net, that's for sure.

It should be remembered that the FDA is not after Armstrong per se. It's primarily investigating the abuse of federal funds within the US postal team years ago. It's investigating claims of drug use within the team only to ascertain if that was what the funds were used for.

They have an almighty stick to threaten/tempt riders into telling them the truth as well. Note that the ex baseball pitcher Roger Clemens is currently being indicted for lying whilst on oath. A charge that, if proven, he faces a 30 year prison sentence for!

Tell me, what would you do? Keep the omerta and risk 30 years inside, or shop your colleagues?

 

[Panter]

Well, this is an interesting thread


(and I mean that quite sincerely BTW)

 

[mangaman]

LA might well get tangled up in the net, that's for sure.

It should be remembered that the FDA is not after Armstrong per se. It's primarily investigating the abuse of federal funds within the US postal team years ago. It's investigating claims of drug use within the team only to ascertain if that was what the funds were used for.

They have an almighty stick to threaten/tempt riders into telling them the truth as well. Note that the ex baseball pitcher Roger Clemens is currently being indicted for lying whilst on oath. A charge that, if proven, he faces a 30 year prison sentence for!

Tell me, what would you do? Keep the omerta and risk 30 years inside, or shop your colleagues?

This is, of course, the key.

The FBI getting involved for non-sporting reasons is not good news for US dopers.

Dope testing rarely works - that has been shown time and time again. Millar never failed a test - it was a police sting that nailed him.

The FBI ups the ante somewhat. US sports are notorious for having no doping regulations (baseball / basketball / US football - take a look at these guys and find out hw often they are independently teasted)

I disagree with the earlier comment that everyone doped so Armstrong / Ulrich et al are innocent.

Armstrong's attack on Bassons was the main reason I dislike him. He was the 1st to openly attack, in public, someone for publicly coming out in his newspaper column against drugs (remember in the Festina trial all the riders testified on oath that Bassons was the only clean rider).

Armstrong lost all respect on that stage as far as I am concerned.

He was not then the all conquering TDF winner and the "patron" of the peleton - he hadn't won it once then - he was a rider trying to destroy the career of an anti-doping, clean rider.

Why? I guess we have to draw our own conclusions.

 

[Bill Gates]

There must be more column inches devoted to LA doping than any other subject on any other sportsman in history. There is a whole industry devoted to the subject. I've been reading about this on different cycling forums for the last 5 years. Some people have files and files on it and bring up all sorts of obscure stuff to prove some point or other. One thing is for sure it's going to run and run for who knows? Maybe another 5 years.

He doped.

He didn't dope.

I really don't give a monkeys!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mangaman]

There must be more column inches devoted to LA doping than any other subject on any other sportsman in history. There is a whole industry devoted to the subject. I've been reading about this on different cycling forums for the last 5 years. Some people have files and files on it and bring up all sorts of obscure stuff to prove some point or other. One thing is for sure it's going to run and run for who knows? Maybe another 5 years.

He doped.

He didn't dope.

I really don't give a monkeys!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Bill.

That's really interesting.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[yello]

Run and run, this particular investigation wont. There's a statute of limitations of, I think off hand, 5 years so they can't take too long over it. That said, the FDA will want to get the facts assembled and their case, should they indite, solid. They'll not rush it.

It's really really interesting reading the various US reports on the web. Be they sports editor opinion pieces for their respective journals, or informed observers and/or fans on blogs. The doubts are creeping in slowly, the erosion to Armstrong's public image is tangible. You have to keep in mind a backdrop of US major sports heroes that have fallen from grace. It's becoming believable to more and more people that Armstrong may have doped. He might not get busted but he'll be bruised.

Personally, I think he's going down. I think he'll be lucky to avoid a jail sentence. There are some potentially hefty charges that could come his way, doping is the least of it. We're talking fraud, embezzlement, even drug trafficking. Seriously, it doesn't look good for him and he's lawyering up.