DogTired
Über Member
- Location
- Floating on a sea of vimto.
Are several of them for beard growth because that is a cracker!
The New Improved Invitation Only Armstrong thread.
- Thread starter mickle
- Start date
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Are several of them for beard growth because that is a cracker!
Getafix - the Michele Ferrari of Gaul.
asterix
Comrade Member
- Location
- Limoges or York
Oh no I don't take drugs, only magic potion to defeat the Romans. It's a responsible job and someone has to do it.
Davidc
Guru
- Location
- Somerset UK
Exactly the correct response on a Lance Armstrong thread!
doctornige
Well-Known Member
I have read a fair bit lately ... old autobiographies, a bit of press, films etc, and I am going soft on Lance. I am not looking to pick a fight because everyone has their own view. This is the only place I can sensible air mine. My opinion (which counts for nothing in the scheme of things) is that Lance was cycling at a time when doping had reached peak which has been building since just post-Coppi. I don't think it is possible to look at any race result or championship jersey from that time onward without wondering what might have been in the winner's veins. For that reason, I don't think it's fair to isolate Armstrong as a pariah.
Next, I understand that cheating in sport is something that happens a lot. I am not talking solely about drugs here, but also fouling. A pro football player or a Six Nations Rugby player is expected to foul. They are ASKED to do it, and they comply. They get a red card, not a 2 year ban. No results are reversed on post-hoc evidence (Diego Maradona, you cheating, little turd). For that reason, I think that the penalties in cycling are harsh, but if that is what the UCI wants, then fine, however wiping the results doesn't make a ton of sense in the context of what is going on it other sports.
Additionally, anyone in the pro peloton has to work hard to be there. Lance was a fit, strong athlete at the top of his game. Given that the rest of the peloton was also doping (with some notable exceptions), the fact that he rose to the top speaks something of his basic physical capability. For that reason, I still think he is a bloody good cyclist.
Finally, I think that pro cycling holds charm as a sport to follow for a host of reasons, but one of them is the idea of heroes and villains. I don' think there are many sports aside from Mexican wrestling where we can hold such partisan views with genuine passion and thereby enhance our enjoyment of the spectacle that is the global pro peloton. Long may it prosper.
I hope beyond anything that pro cycling can rise out of this.
Next, I understand that cheating in sport is something that happens a lot. I am not talking solely about drugs here, but also fouling. A pro football player or a Six Nations Rugby player is expected to foul. They are ASKED to do it, and they comply. They get a red card, not a 2 year ban. No results are reversed on post-hoc evidence (Diego Maradona, you cheating, little turd). For that reason, I think that the penalties in cycling are harsh, but if that is what the UCI wants, then fine, however wiping the results doesn't make a ton of sense in the context of what is going on it other sports.
Additionally, anyone in the pro peloton has to work hard to be there. Lance was a fit, strong athlete at the top of his game. Given that the rest of the peloton was also doping (with some notable exceptions), the fact that he rose to the top speaks something of his basic physical capability. For that reason, I still think he is a bloody good cyclist.
Finally, I think that pro cycling holds charm as a sport to follow for a host of reasons, but one of them is the idea of heroes and villains. I don' think there are many sports aside from Mexican wrestling where we can hold such partisan views with genuine passion and thereby enhance our enjoyment of the spectacle that is the global pro peloton. Long may it prosper.
I hope beyond anything that pro cycling can rise out of this.
Mr Haematocrit
msg me on kik for android
- Location
- Out of the saddle
Armstrong should be treated as a pariah, irrespective of the charges against him, the man manipulated the press, the fans, and other riders.. He was simply not a good person.
He destroyed peoples business, he destroyed reputations and he destroyed cycling careers.
You say you have read a fair bit lately, have you by any chance read anything from the people he screwed over such as Filippo Simeoni... His evidence in the case tells the story of Armstrong, the man, the cyclist, the shitbag.
http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/TRANSLATION+Simeoni+Witness+Statement.pdf
Karma gets you if your a shitbag and that is what makes Lance a pariah imho not anything else.
007fair
Senior Member
- Location
- Glasgow Brr ..
I am not in for a fight either. But I think your view does not consider the following:
Lance organised the team drug taking. Anyone who didn't comply could not stay in the team. He created an unfair playing field for those wanting to compete honestly. That could be the worst of thing about it.
Anyone who spoke out against it was seemingly ostricised from the peloton and although not all Lances doing he did play a big part in it.
Lance kicked it all off the year after the festina affair when cycling was supposed to be having a fresh start. Lance saw that as an 'opportunity'.
Taking drugs secretively is not the same as hauling someone down on the field of play. (I hated Suarez hand ball in the world cup .. but at least it was out in the open)
Lance's natural hemacrotic (?) level meant he benefited more than most from EPO
He was a bully to those who were actually just trying to be honest - is that not the worst of it ?
He deny's everything.. even with the mountain of evidence right behind him he persist to acknowledge its existence - maybe thats the worst thing of all?
I agree - He was probably a great rider anyway. Others did dope for sure. I am all for a strong competitive attitude - just within the rules.
But at some point the bottom line is - 'are drugs OK in sport or not?'. You have to come down on one side or the other, and if they are not Ok, then he is a cheat and he does not deserve sympathy. He doesn't seem all that bothered about what people think to be fair. I would have more sympathy now if he owned up - I think
And his Charity ... He can charge what he likes because of his name, which was wrongfully gained. Doesn't make me feel warm towards him !
From it he can garner public sympathy and loyalty, but theres something Jimmy Saville like about that, no?
I think cycling will be fighting this issue for ever.
Someone today looking at what Lance has done and ended up as - would it put everyone off drugs ? I'm not so sure .. Given his current stance he is in a way still encouraging people to take the risk.
Lance organised the team drug taking. Anyone who didn't comply could not stay in the team. He created an unfair playing field for those wanting to compete honestly. That could be the worst of thing about it.
Anyone who spoke out against it was seemingly ostricised from the peloton and although not all Lances doing he did play a big part in it.
Lance kicked it all off the year after the festina affair when cycling was supposed to be having a fresh start. Lance saw that as an 'opportunity'.
Taking drugs secretively is not the same as hauling someone down on the field of play. (I hated Suarez hand ball in the world cup .. but at least it was out in the open)
Lance's natural hemacrotic (?) level meant he benefited more than most from EPO
He was a bully to those who were actually just trying to be honest - is that not the worst of it ?
He deny's everything.. even with the mountain of evidence right behind him he persist to acknowledge its existence - maybe thats the worst thing of all?
I agree - He was probably a great rider anyway. Others did dope for sure. I am all for a strong competitive attitude - just within the rules.
But at some point the bottom line is - 'are drugs OK in sport or not?'. You have to come down on one side or the other, and if they are not Ok, then he is a cheat and he does not deserve sympathy. He doesn't seem all that bothered about what people think to be fair. I would have more sympathy now if he owned up - I think
And his Charity ... He can charge what he likes because of his name, which was wrongfully gained. Doesn't make me feel warm towards him !
From it he can garner public sympathy and loyalty, but theres something Jimmy Saville like about that, no?
I think cycling will be fighting this issue for ever.
Someone today looking at what Lance has done and ended up as - would it put everyone off drugs ? I'm not so sure .. Given his current stance he is in a way still encouraging people to take the risk.
doctornige
Well-Known Member
007, I should have added to my post that the thing that irks me about LA is the bullying and blatant lying. That bit is not so good.
Archie_tect
De Skieven Architek... aka Penfold + Horace
- Location
- Northumberland
It's a miracle he ever got to the moon.
(a) This is the wrong thread for Armstrong discussions, in that Mickle started it as a joke just to irritate two irritant potsers
(b) We've done these arguments ad nauseam on the other two threads for 200 pages - do we really have to go back to square one and start discussing whether he was guilty, they were all at it etc
(c) Where on earth have some of you been for the last few months!!!!????
(d) Feel free to carry on until some new revelations drag the rest of us back in!
(b) We've done these arguments ad nauseam on the other two threads for 200 pages - do we really have to go back to square one and start discussing whether he was guilty, they were all at it etc
(c) Where on earth have some of you been for the last few months!!!!????
(d) Feel free to carry on until some new revelations drag the rest of us back in!
so, Rich, what you're trying to say is that Lance doped. Do you have any evidence for that?
