The Media War on Cycling

[Ming the Merciless]

Pavement doesn't really have any meaning here either

It has been in common usage for at least 50 years, likely longer, in the UK. It has meaning in the same way road has meaning in the UK. We all know what someone in the UK means when they say pavement or road.

 

[mjr]

We all know what someone in the UK means when they say pavement or road.

Sadly not, because some incorrectly think road means carriageway, rather than highway.

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

It has been in common usage for at least 50 years, likely longer, in the UK. It has meaning in the same way road has meaning in the UK. We all know what someone in the UK means when they say pavement or road.

Do we? Because I find people say 'pavement' and that generally means any hard surface people walk on. It doesn't not give any clue as to where it is (along side a road or discrete and separate) nor standing in law. Thanks for selectively quoting me to take that out of context

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Do we?

Yes, I’ve never heard pavement used to refer to anything other. Footpath being used when away from road etc.

 

[T4tomo]

Yes, I’ve never heard pavement used to refer to anything other. Footpath being used when away from road etc.

Agree. footway, highway, carriageway are not in common use in the UK, however technically "correct" they maybe.

Road and pavement are.

mjr and pedalnowhere seem to like taking exception to common sense.

 

[Ajax Bay]

There was a period when he said he would not ride on the road, most likely as a result of the obvious. The words "exhausting", "unpleasant" and "too dangerous" were the ones he used.

2017: "The ex-professional, who is cycling and walking commissioner for Greater Manchester, says he now tries to do to do more of his riding off-road.
“The roads are statistically safe, but it doesn’t look it and it doesn’t feel it. Now I try to do more of my riding off-road, which is sad,” he said in an interview to mark his appointment by Mancunian metro mayor, Andy Burnham.
Boardman says he finds road riding in parts of the UK “exhausting” and unpleasant.
“False modesty aside, I’m about as competent as it gets and I am constantly doing risk assessments,” Boardman adds.
“I’m looking at parked cars, seeing which way wheels are turning, everything that’s going on around me. It’s just exhausting.”

So he didn't actually say "he would not ride on the road" @Drago
I think it's reasonable to say that road riding in parts of the UK can be "unpleasant" and that you have to be constantly vigilant (I think 'exhausting' is hyperbolic).
But this is the context for improvements and resources to be put into safer cycling: remember back in 2017.
There is no doubt (well apart from doubting Dragos) that Boardman is a force for good. Can you think of a single person who's done more for cycling in UK?

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

Agree. footway, highway, carriageway are not in common use in the UK, however technically "correct" they maybe.

Road and pavement are.

mjr and pedalnowhere seem to like taking exception to common sense.

It's not about taking exception to anything, save for common sense not being common a lot of the time.

I've seen the term footpath used twice recently in social media posts complaining about drivers parking on the footway. It could be local variation in use of the term, but the point is, it is ambiguous and it is hard to describe and share understanding when ambiguous terms are used.

 

[Fastpedaller]

There have been news reports of road workers being abused by motorists - the motorists don't seem to realise it is THEY that are collectively causing the delay, not the road workers. There was even a road worker who had a gun pointed at her! Horrific.
Along the A14 we have recently seen (at a reduction to one lane section) signs stating "Work taking place out of sight" .... And it's true, we haven't seen anyone during several journeys along that stretch of the road

 

[Ajax Bay]

Pavement doesn't really have any meaning here either; it should be footway if we mean the raised section for pedestrians at the side of the road.

Where is "here"? You are in UK right? Why "should" it be called a "footway". Lots of pavements are dual use (peds/cycles) so calling them footways would be plain wrong (and American). And footpath is a designation (across ground say): bridleway is one step up. Pavements are associated with roads: if no road, it's not a pavement, it's a footpath, or whatever.

Because I find people say 'pavement' and that generally means any hard surface people walk on.

You find some odd people.
"I was walking on the road." (where vehicles can roll; if you were walking to the shops in suburbia you wouldn't say "I was walking on the road."
"I was walking on the pavement and had to go into the road because a car had parked across it."
"The road had no pavement."
"The pavement was a shared one: clearly signed. This one was wide enough but some aren't."
"He drove the car up onto the pavement and nearly hit a pedestrian."
"He resorted to illegally riding on the pavement at one point when the traffic got too much."

Agree. footway, highway, carriageway are not in common use in the UK, however technically "correct" they maybe.
Road and pavement are.
mjr and pedalnowhere seem to like taking exception to common sense.

Think you group @mjr unfairly there.
The challenge with the use of pavement is its imported use to describe a paved/asphalt/tarmac/concrete/other surface in the urban traffic environment which means legislators and other specialists need to use the other terms to avoid confusion.
But real people don't need to: a road is a road: a pavement is the raised bit for peds, alongside.

 

[PedallingNowhereSlowly]

Where is "here"? You are in UK right? Why "should" it be called a "footway"

Because that has a non-ambiguous meaning defined in UK law.

And this level of whataboutery is bordering on ridiculous.

"He resorted to illegally riding on the pavement at one point when the traffic got too much."

This highlights exactly why it is important.
Riding on a footway is an offence.
Riding on a footpath is not necessarily an offence - cycling may be permitted by the land owner.
Pavement could mean either footway, footpath, bridleway, BOAT etc.. The context would possibly help, and most people would conclude that what is meant is footway. But the ambiguity causes different possible interpretations when 'footpath' and 'pavement' are so often used interchangeably. It's not for no reason that the Highway Code uses both terms in places.

 

[mjr]

But real people don't need to: a road is a road: a pavement is the raised bit for peds, alongside.

So you don't consider pavements (legally "footways") to be part of a road, then? 😯

 

[Jody]

 

[Alex321]

Where is "here"? You are in UK right? Why "should" it be called a "footway". Lots of pavements are dual use (peds/cycles) so calling them footways would be plain wrong (and American).

It is not "plain wrong", because it is the correct legal term, which is used in the Highways Act and others.

And footpath is a designation (across ground say): bridleway is one step up. Pavements are associated with roads: if no road, it's not a pavement, it's a footpath, or whatever.

I agree this is general usage, but I don't know of anywhere in the law where the word "pavement" is used, even though almost everybody in the UK will know that it is what would be called a "sidewalk" in the US, namely a hard surfaced section alongside the carriageway, intended for pedestrians (and sometimes cyclists as well).

Think you group @mjr unfairly there.
The challenge with the use of pavement is its imported use to describe a paved/asphalt/tarmac/concrete/other surface in the urban traffic environment which means legislators and other specialists need to use the other terms to avoid confusion.

I think the legislators used that term long before the North American usage of "pavement" became commonplace here.

In fact I think it dates from when most non-pedestrian traffic was horse draw, hence "carriageway" for the part carriages could use, and "footway" for the part that could only be used on foot.
[EDIT]
Yes, I have found the term used in legislation from 1835, when I don't think there were much in the way of paved roads, here or in America.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Will4/5-6/50/section/LXXX/enacted
And be it further enacted, That the said Surveyor shall and he is hereby required to make, support, and maintain, or cause to be made, supported, and maintained, every public Cartway leading to any Market Town Twenty Feet wide at the least, and every public Horseway Eight Feet wide at the least, and to support and maintain every public Footway by the Side of any Carriageway or Cartway Three Feet at the least, if the Ground between the Fences including the same will admit thereof: Provided nevertheless, that nothing herein contained shall require any Surveyor to make or form any public Footway without the Consent of the Inhabitants in Vestry assembled.

But real people don't need to: a road is a road: a pavement is the raised bit for peds, alongside.

I know and agree that is what we all understand in the UK. But technically and legally, it is the carriageway and footway, with the whole being called the highway.

And if we are talking in an international forum it is best to use those terms to avoid confusion.

 

[Profpointy]

It has been in common usage for at least 50 years, likely longer, in the UK. It has meaning in the same way road has meaning in the UK. We all know what someone in the UK means when they say pavement or road.

Quite - they'll be saying there's no such thing "road tax" next

 

[SpokeyDokey]

Mod note:

The terminology debate is dragging this thread well off course.

Can we please get back on topic. Many thanks.