The long road to ruin

[GrumpyGregry]

Why the UK needs to reform motoring taxes.

From the Institute of Public Policy Research.

Have a read.

What do we think?

 

[Apollonius]

Why the UK needs to reform motoring taxes.

From the Institute of Public Policy Research.

Have a read.

What do we think?

I think my PC is having a moment. I can't get the link to work and when I tried to reload, I seemed to have replied!

 

[Apollonius]

Just had a glance through. Taken by bold statements like "Motoring has caused a public health crisis."

I believe this is a left-leaning think-tank. It will take a real disaster like the smogs of the early 50s which led to the clean air acts for anything to happen. The car is the default and most cannot imagine anything other than a car-centred world. And all the pride of ownership is in a big, expensive and extravagant car. Not easy to change that. It's sort of atavistic!

 

[Cycleops]

We all know the current system is unfair, but will it ever change? I don't think so.

 

[Ern1e]

We all know the current system is unfair, but will it ever change? I don't think so.

I agree with you the system is very unfair ! which is one of the reasons it should be reformed, and @Apollonius for those who want to own that big flash gas guzzling pointless 4x4 if they had to pay duty by the mile one wonders how long they would keep them ? The only problem with a pay by the miles you do thing would have a serious impact on the haulage industry !

 

[Profpointy]

I agree with you the system is very unfair ! which is one of the reasons it should be reformed, and @Apollonius for those who want to own that big flash gas guzzling pointless 4x4 if they had to pay duty by the mile one wonders how long they would keep them ? The only problem with a pay by the miles you do thing would have a serious impact on the haulage industry !

How about a system where you pay according to how much fuel you use? Then gas-guzlers, be they 4x4 or Bentleys would pay more per mile, and similarly someone doing lots of miles on a more reasonable car would still pay as that still would be a cost to society / environment They wouldn't then need to have anything complicated, just collect tax as a sales tax on fuel. I don't see how it would hit haulage industry, as they'd only be competing with other hauliers, unless stuff got moved less - which in itself might be a good thing.

Oh that won't work as we wouldn't then need a multi billion pound national GPS surveillance and road pricing gravy train

 

[Ern1e]

How about a system where you pay according to how much fuel you use? Then gas-guzlers, be they 4x4 or Bentleys would pay more per mile, and similarly someone doing lots of miles on a more reasonable car would still pay as that still would be a cost to society / environment They wouldn't then need to have anything complicated, just collect tax as a sales tax on fuel. I don't see how it would hit haulage industry, as they'd only be competing with other hauliers, unless stuff got moved less - which in itself might be a good thing.

Oh that won't work as we wouldn't then need a multi billion pound national GPS surveillance and road pricing gravy train

This is what I was thinking about but on the truck side of things (not sure just what percentage) but most things are moved about on trucks which have an mpg of 9 or less so if they had to pay by the mile it most likley would increase the cost's which would then be passed on to us ! so our cost of living would increase.Plus if stuff got moved less by trucks which like you state may not be a bad thing how would things get into the supermarkets etc ? ok local produce etc but what if you wanted some edam cheese for examplei for one would not fancy taking a trip over to Holland just to get a wedge,I think we need trucks and also a return to a goods rail system where by stuff could be distributed from more central locations.

 

[Profpointy]

This is what I was thinking about but on the truck side of things (not sure just what percentage) but most things are moved about on trucks which have an mpg of 9 or less so if they had to pay by the mile it most likley would increase the cost's which would then be passed on to us ! so our cost of living would increase.Plus if stuff got moved less by trucks which like you state may not be a bad thing how would things get into the supermarkets etc ? ok local produce etc but what if you wanted some edam cheese for examplei for one would not fancy taking a trip over to Holland just to get a wedge,I think we need trucks and also a return to a goods rail system where by stuff could be distributed from more central locations.

Not sure putting up the cost of transport is such a bad thing. It would encourage more efficient routing, not sending trucks home empty, dare I say more local produce, not shipping everything to and from the central depot, but from producer to the end user or shop and so forth. If cost of transport (cars and lorries alike) is increased, then it does make the beneficiaries pay (businesses and their customers in turn) rather than the rest of society suffering the traffic, pollution, harm to economy from oil imports etc - what economists call "externalities" where others are essentially "paying". People might even move nearer their place of work, or perhaps even more utopian, work be moved to nearer where folks want to live. And I acknowledge I do enjoy my share of consumer society, cars etc, but collectively, we'd be better off with less transportation

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Why do different types of vehicle have to pay the same fuel tax?

Technology can easily fix that for us.

 

[MikeG]

How about a system where you pay according to how much fuel you use? ........

Oh that won't work as we wouldn't then need a multi billion pound national GPS surveillance and road pricing gravy train

We already have such a system, with the government taking a large percentage of all the money we pay in fuel. There is no need whatsoever to add GPS tracking to the system. If you want people to pay more per mile, then put up the price of fuel. Simple.

 

[Profpointy]

We already have such a system, with the government taking a large percentage of all the money we pay in fuel. There is no need whatsoever to add GPS tracking to the system. If you want people to pay more per mile, then put up the price of fuel. Simple.

quite !

 

[Profpointy]

Why do different types of vehicle have to pay the same fuel tax?

Technology can easily fix that for us.

I'd suggest that's a non problem that doesn't need fixing. A while ago, may even still be true, it was much cheaper tax wise to have a "company van" rather than a "company car" - result was a huge increase in monster 4x4 pick up trucks. Just tax fuel - and people will tend to most appropriate vehicles and fewer journeys. simples

 

[MikeG]

I'd suggest that's a non problem that doesn't need fixing. A while ago, may even still be true, it was much cheaper tax wise to have a "company van" rather than a "company car" - result was a huge increase in monster 4x4 pick up trucks. Just tax fuel - and people will tend to most appropriate vehicles and fewer journeys. simples

But rural communities would be devastated. Many, if not most, villages don't have a bus service, and many that do have one get a bus, say, 3 times a week. People who can't afford to run a car will be forced into towns, turning villages into rich people's dormitories.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I'd suggest that's a non problem that doesn't need fixing. A while ago, may even still be true, it was much cheaper tax wise to have a "company van" rather than a "company car" - result was a huge increase in monster 4x4 pick up trucks. Just tax fuel - and people will tend to most appropriate vehicles and fewer journeys. simples

Yes just tax fuel. But tax fuel at different rates for different classes of vehicle. HGV's should pay less than private cars.

 

[Profpointy]

But rural communities would be devastated. Many, if not most, villages don't have a bus service, and many that do have one get a bus, say, 3 times a week. People who can't afford to run a car will be forced into towns, turning villages into rich people's dormitories.

So people living in the country should have their motoring subsidised ? Is that really what you are saying?

that would encourage anyone commuting by car to move to the country so they'd get subsidised fuel