The family shouted at the jury : “Were you not listening?”

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GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Presumably partly because it being relevant was brought in to play so late in proceedings?
My understanding is the visit was proposed from the outset but then someone said "oh chuff it, it is just another dead cyclist let's not bother."


Would it not make sense for one of the cycling lobby groups to be hitting the CPS with the offer of expert witnesses who could stand up and explain the process of cycling safely on a UK road? Seems it wouldn't take a lot of court time and going through the basics in front of the jury could explain a lot of cyclists actions that they have no clue about when it was relevant to the case.
Every case involving a cyclist's death, or their serious, significantly life-changing injury, should go to court. If the defendant is innocent the courts will find them so.
Every case should involve expert testimony from folk the CDF/CTC
Every case should involve a pro-cycling lawyer with significant expertise in the area.
 

Origamist

Legendary Member
I'm not going to attach too much credence to a comment that derives from the bottom half of the internet, but nonetheless, here is a post about the planned site visit from "Mark B" that appears pertinent:

Originally the prosecution was asking for the jurors to be driven to the site of the collision. The reason given for this not going ahead was the difficulty in closing the road. But it’s not a motorway and short-term diversions could have been arranged. Also it would have taken only 4 days to organize from when it was suggested on Day 2 of the Trial.

https://beyondthekerb.wordpress.com/2015/03/21/somethings-not-quite-right-here/

I'm waiting to hear more about this, as I think a site visit would have been very helpful.
 
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w00hoo_kent

One of the 64K
Every case involving a cyclist's death, or their serious, significantly life-changing injury, should go to court. If the defendant is innocent the courts will find them so.
Every case should involve expert testimony from folk the CDF/CTC
Every case should involve a pro-cycling lawyer with significant expertise in the area.
And I presume pedestrian deaths should have someone from the RA and a non-driving lawyer representing them? Which group do we use if someone dies swimming?
I agree if it looks suspect it should go to court and if it goes to court then the correct people should be present to make sure the facts are put across correctly, every time a cyclist dies? I had a friend died of a heart attack while cycling last year, who are we prosecuting for that? I mean, he was on the road and everything.
 

w00hoo_kent

One of the 64K
If the Prosecution had thought that a site visit was important, why hadn't this been agreed and arranged prior to the hearing commencing as you would expect? It seems to me that this may have been something that came up during the course of the trial and an application made.

Something doesn't sound right.
The discussion here has made it clear that the accused made a number of u turns in their claims (I think we're at 4 or 5 dealing with varied bits of the case), among them only bringing up the defence that the victim was on the footpath during the trial.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
And I presume pedestrian deaths should have someone from the RA and a non-driving lawyer representing them? Which group do we use if someone dies swimming?
I agree if it looks suspect it should go to court and if it goes to court then the correct people should be present to make sure the facts are put across correctly, every time a cyclist dies? I had a friend died of a heart attack while cycling last year, who are we prosecuting for that? I mean, he was on the road and everything.
If you're relaxed about cases where drivers who kill cyclists not going to court well... hope it stays fine for you, your family, your friends and any members of any cycling club you may be a member of.

Your strawman arguments are distasteful in the context of this thread btw.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
You are misinterpreting the intent here.
You may be right. And if I have and caused upset I shall apologise. The misinterpretation is not wilful. But I can't ascertain intent from a post and can only respond to its content. I thought the subject matter of the thread sufficient to give context to my use of case and not bring the Ramblers and deaths by drowning into it but I will spell it out. I think...

Every case of an RTC involving a cyclist's death, or their serious, significantly life-changing, injury, should go to court. If the defendant is innocent the courts will find them so.
Every case of an RTC that goes to court involving a cyclist's death, et cetera, should involve expert testimony from folk at the CDF/CTC
Every case of an RTC that goes to court involving a cyclist's death, et cetera, should involve a pro-cycling lawyer with significant expertise in the area
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
Every case of an RTC involving a cyclist's death, or their serious, significantly life-changing, injury, should go to court. If the defendant is innocent the courts will find them so.

That could have happened here, although I accept it doesn't look like it.

The notion of prosecuting the surviving party in a road traffic collision is a fairly recent one.

No doubt many years ago some drivers involved in fatal accidents rather got away with a killing, albeit an unintentional one.

But I'm not comfortable with the notion every fatal collision should see the surviving driver prosecuted.

A prosecution should be mounted if there is evidence of careless or dangerous driving, which will often be the case, but not always so.

I recall an incident reported on television in which a lass wiped out a cyclist while driving her Mini late at night.

She hit the cyclist with the front nearside of her car.

Evidence gathered at the scene found he was riding a dark bicycle, had no lights and was wearing dark clothing.

Crucially, the cyclist was very, very drunk.

She knew none of that at the time of her police interview, but her account was he must have swerved into her path.

She was not prosecuted, which I believe was the correct decision.
 

Origamist

Legendary Member
If the Prosecution had thought that a site visit was important, why hadn't this been agreed and arranged prior to the hearing commencing as you would expect? It seems to me that this may have been something that came up during the course of the trial and an application made.

Something doesn't sound right.

Not much that I've read about this tragic case sounds "right" to me...
 

Dmcd33

Well-Known Member
I rather get the impression that an awful lot of non-cyclists genuinely believe the "wobblin' about all over the place, jumping red lights, don't pay any effin' road tax type stuff" and hence are all too ready to see cyclists as a hazard to motorists, even if they themselves can drive actually adequately well, but are still inclined to give "the hard pressed motorist" the benefit of the doubt unless they're objectively drunk or whatever. Contrast this with the chap who fell asleep and crashed into a train. If he'd crashed into some cyclists it's inconceivable he'd have been as severely treated.

This attitude is re-enforced by the likes of Clarkson, references to lycra-louts crashing into grannies and all the rest. I think a daily mail journalist reported her granny had been killed by pavement cycling or two or three separate occasions. People believe this stuff. I don't think I'm over-dramatizing

Very well put!
I have three examples of comments from professional people, who I get on well with at work as follows;

1. I reference to someone mentioning frustration with two abrest cycling - "no wonder they get run over"
2. In reference to a Dr coming in and seeing my hi vis - "your one of those cyclists are you? (sarcastic)"
3. Again two abrest cycling - "why do they have to take up the road. I beeped my horn and swerved infront of them and they (cyclists) just looked at me".

These are people that until you have a cycling related conversation, they don't mention their irrational arguments as to why they dislike cyclists e.g. Jump red lights (so do cars), two abrest (takes up the same as one car), they get in my way (actually cars get in my way), we pay taxes and they don't (most cyclists own cars and pay tax), it's my road (really), they come out of nowhere (no such place and so do cars), they weave in and out of traffic (and motorbikes?)...............

Most of them also say that they would love to cycle, but don't feel safe enough. Full of contradictions and the press peddle the myths to get click bait.

In regards to jury service, I did 3 months on a high profile murder trial. One juror had him guilty before hearing evidence. The rest were easily swayed by the more forceful characters and the weaker ones just got ground down and gave up arguing. To be fair I think It was one of the better juror groups that could have been selected, but I would never want to be judged by a jury. Too much emotion and value based systems at play.
 
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It was probably decided a site visit wouldn't assist the jury over and above the information they were already being given.

Visits can be difficult to organise.

I don't know the site, but it appears to be a busy A road.

You can't have 12 jurors, lawyers and a judge wandering around playing with the traffic.

So for a visit to have any meaning, it may be a road closure would have been needed.

In a public place, there's always the risk someone - meaning no harm - may speak to one of the jurors, so there's quite a bit of shepherding to be done.

Then there's the risk someone takes a photograph - 'look what I saw today' appearing on twitbook is a big problem if it shows any of the jurors' faces.

It's easy to see why site visits are avoided unless they are absolutely necessary.
Of course a site visit would be dangerous!

They might get hit by a muppet on their mobile phone
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
Had she been would she have been found guilty? No.

whist I sympathise with Grumpy's point, ie far too few prosecutions never mind convictions for killing cyclists, and do agree something needs to change. However always prosecuting isn't really the answer as we'd get a load of jurors sworn in, judge asks the prosecuting brief to state the case "we've not actually got a case m'lud" .....even if preambled with a description of the tragedy, is going to get short shrift off the judge and not achieve anything.

Something is needed though, all the same
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
So you trust a jury in that situation, but presumably not in the case at hand.

You can't have it both ways.
Indeed I can.

At present in cases of car v bike collisions the process, from often tepid investigation, reluctance to charge, through prosecution to sentencing, if convicted, bends over backwards in favour of the driver.

The case in hand highlights the flaws of the jury system in acquitting the guilty, by way of inept, lacklustre prosecution and through 'smart' or 'grandstanding' defence, and does not speak to the astronomically slim chance of convicting the innocent, in cases that arise a result of RTCs. Even when the guilty are, by what feels like a fluke, convicted they get little more than a slap on the wrist, after all.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
whist I sympathise with Grumpy's point, ie far too few prosecutions never mind convictions for killing cyclists, and do agree something needs to change. However always prosecuting isn't really the answer as we'd get a load of jurors sworn in, judge asks the prosecuting brief to state the case "we've not actually got a case m'lud" .....even if preambled with a description of the tragedy, is going to get short shrift off the judge and not achieve anything.

Something is needed though, all the same
Go to Magistrates or some other form of lower court and let them examine the evidence determine if there is a case to answer? Anything is better than letting plod or CPS decide.
 
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