TFL e-bike ban

[T4tomo]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-bikes-after-concerns-over-igniting-batteries

still Ok with a folding ebike....

 

[DCLane]

Not surprised here imo - as the article states they struggle to tell the difference between a standard and modified e-bike where it's a battery/motor bolted on. Although I can see pretty easily the difference. Also, it may be about space limitations.

 

[Drago]

The average TFL spode who hasnt ridden a bike in 3 decades can't tell the difference.

I can tell the difference. You can tell the difference. But neither of us are actually qualified to do so, so our opinion is of no consequence to insurers.

 

[ianrauk]

There's far too many hooky bikes out there currently using and abusing the system. Unfortunately a blanket ban is correct.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

The average TFL spode who hasnt ridden a bike in 3 decades can't tell the difference.

I can tell the difference. You can tell the difference. But neither of us are actually qualified to do so, so our opinion is of no consequence to insurers.

It also makes it a lot easier for the people trying to enforce it
give the idiots less points to argue about

folding/not folding is an easy thing to be able to tell the staff what is allowed and not

not sure what would happen if I turned up with by Bosch powered ebike - but with no battery?

 

[mjr]

There's far too many hooky bikes out there currently using and abusing the system. Unfortunately a blanket ban is correct.

A blanket ban on full size e-bikes is really not correct. This seems like exploiting fears about battery fires to ban some full-size bikes. If they really wanted to tackle unsafe batteries, they'd ban batteries without the correct safety labels, whether or not they're attached to a bike. If this is really about fires, then it's completely ridiculous to allow folded e-bikes when a hinge doesn't do anything to prevent a fire. So let's ridicule them.

I hope someone with standing asks them for the Equalities Impact Assessment on this, because this seems pretty likely to disproportionately disadvantage people using e-bikes to overcome health problems, which I suspect is illegal.

 

[mjr]

not sure what would happen if I turned up with by Bosch powered ebike - but with no battery?

It's not at all clear from the update that has been posted to https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycles-on-public-transport what the actual change to the formal rules will be. While we know legislation sets out the criteria to be met to be classed as an e-bike rather than a motorbike, I don't know if there's similar legislation or legal precedent setting out criteria for something to be classed as an e-bike rather than just a bike. It probably isn't as simple as having a battery or motor carried on the bike, as I'm pretty sure strapping a battery to the luggage rack and installing a disconnected motor wheel still wouldn't be classed as an e-bike.

If it works as a bike with the battery removed, that's just a bike, right? TfL apparently doesn't care if there's a battery in your backpack, even if it's a ticking firebomb.

Or what about things like a Swytch conversion kit with the bag not present (maybe even someone else carrying that), or a disconnected Copenhagen Wheel?

So many grey areas. Such a terrible ban.

 

[classic33]

A blanket ban on full size e-bikes is really not correct. This seems like exploiting fears about battery fires to ban some full-size bikes. If they really wanted to tackle unsafe batteries, they'd ban batteries without the correct safety labels, whether or not they're attached to a bike. If this is really about fires, then it's completely ridiculous to allow folded e-bikes when a hinge doesn't do anything to prevent a fire. So let's ridicule them.

I hope someone with standing asks them for the Equalities Impact Assessment on this, because this seems pretty likely to disproportionately disadvantage people using e-bikes to overcome health problems, which I suspect is illegal.

I'm with ianrauk on this one, the blanket ban is the correct way to go. Leaves anyone who might be tempted to argue with less wriggle room.

Ebikes are already banned from network rail property anyway.

 

[mjr]

Ebikes are already banned from network rail property anyway.

E-scooters, hoverboards and similar are banned but e-bikes are still allowed near me: https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/travel-information/onboard-travel/bringing-a-bike

An e-bike rail ban would basically mean some of my older friends would no longer go on cycling holidays unless they find people to drive them and their bikes there. That would suck. I hope it never happens.

 

[wiggydiggy]

A blanket ban on full size e-bikes is really not correct. This seems like exploiting fears about battery fires to ban some full-size bikes. If they really wanted to tackle unsafe batteries, they'd ban batteries without the correct safety labels, whether or not they're attached to a bike. If this is really about fires, then it's completely ridiculous to allow folded e-bikes when a hinge doesn't do anything to prevent a fire. So let's ridicule them.

I hope someone with standing asks them for the Equalities Impact Assessment on this, because this seems pretty likely to disproportionately disadvantage people using e-bikes to overcome health problems, which I suspect is illegal.

My bikes got that sticker, stating it is as legal EPAC. My battery has additional safety stickers thay any li-ion battery has. If it doesn't have them, or is using them without being compliant, then there are existing laws to seize the bike that British Transport Police can use

I'm with ianrauk on this one, the blanket ban is the correct way to go. Leaves anyone who might be tempted to argue with less wriggle room.

Ebikes are already banned from network rail property anyway.

Thats news to me, to be clear are you talking about railway stations, and subsequently trains? Because eBikes are absolutely allowed on those in line with the current bicycle policies. Some other forms of electric travel are banned such as scooters, unicycles and hoverboards which might be leading to some misunderstanding.

 

[mjr]

My bikes got that sticker, stating it is as legal EPAC. My battery has additional safety stickers thay any li-ion battery has. If it doesn't have them, or is using them without being compliant, then there are existing laws to seize the bike that British Transport Police can use

Thanks for the info from someone with more experience with such things. Which laws are those? Only BTP or TfL too? Can they seize a random unlabelled untested fire-risk battery not related to a bike?

 

[Drago]

I hope someone with standing asks them for the Equalities Impact Assessment on this, because this seems pretty likely to disproportionately disadvantage people using e-bikes to overcome health problems, which I suspect is illegal.

There are a couple grounds they can cite which potentially make it legal, depending such a scenario. I suspect theyd contend the risk to life and limb for all outweighs any diversity concerns for a minority.

As a local government body they'd have to respond to an FOI request if you felt like seeing if they have done their homework aforehand. I expect they have, but also like you i wouldn't be terribly surprised to find they hadn't.

 

[Drago]

My bikes got that sticker, stating it is as legal EPAC.

What has happened to the bike between the sticker being applied and today is anyone's guess, and TFL staff aren't qualified or have the time to examine each individual machine.

You can even buy these stickers or plates should you feel like indulging jn a bit of fraud-by-false-instrument.

There is no sensiblemor realistic means to establish what may be a legal, u damaged,properly maintained and unmodified ebike, so total exclusion is rhenknly way.

 

[classic33]

E-scooters, hoverboards and similar are banned but e-bikes are still allowed near me: https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/travel-information/onboard-travel/bringing-a-bike

An e-bike rail ban would basically mean some of my older friends would no longer go on cycling holidays unless they find people to drive them and their bikes there. That would suck. I hope it never happens.

Do Great Northern Rail own the stations?

 

[mjr]

There are a couple grounds they can cite which potentially make it legal, depending such a scenario. I suspect theyd contend the risk to life and limb for all outweighs any diversity concerns for a minority.

They might claim that but I doubt it would stand up when there are other steps they could take which would both seem to reduce the risk more and also not have the same discriminatory impact. In the words of the law, that's pretty obviously "such steps as it is reasonable to have to take to avoid the disadvantage".

That should be enough to make any service be less stupid and first try banning bad batteries rather than all e-bikes, but Transport for London are also subject to the extra Public Sector Equality Duties to "advance equality of opportunity" and "foster good relations between persons who share a relevant protected characteristic and persons who do not" that they seem to be violating here by demonising e-bike users including those who use them to adapt to their protected characteristics.

As a local government body they'd have to respond to an FOI request if you felt like seeing if they have done their homework aforehand. I expect they have, but also like you i wouldn't be terribly surprised to find they hadn't.

Mayor Kahn is quoted as saying there was "a comprehensive review of the safety of e-bikes". Even so, these days, it still wouldn't be surprising to find it wasn't all that comprehensive.