Substitute for hill training?

[totallyfixed]

Assuming you have a good power to weight ratio, or cannot improve on it, then technique is crucial and generally speaking, the steeper the hill the more important your hill climbing technique becomes. One other thing, don't get obsessed with how high or low your cadence should be, we all have a natural rhythm when climbing.
I know many specialist hill climbers and they will all tell you that to be good at hills you need to practice on them. If you want to be good at a long distance time trial you don't prepare by doing hill reps, common sense really.

 

[Crankarm]

Moderator advisory: Please keep to the main topic under discussion and don't disrupt or derail it with off-topic comments, personal remarks or unnecessarily argumentative replies. Anyone doing so risks losing access to the thread.

Ehh? Where did this come from? I don't think anyone has. It is remarkably genteel and sedate at the moment unless you know something none of us don't ...................... Maybe you got the wrong thread?

MOD EDIT:
The post to which this refers has been deleted.

It also remains a reminder to everyone participating in giving advice to someone who wishes to improve his hill-climbing.

 

[Crankarm]

Well, there are some situations where big gear work can be helpful, especially so for a climber IMO. But a little self awareness is needed when doing so.

Crankarm said: ↑
No don't do this. Pushing heavy high gears is a big no no as all you do is knacker your knees.

No it is not!

If you say so. I bow to your superieur knowledge. Do you push heavy gears then?

Which situations are these?

 

[Rob3rt]

If you say so. I bow to your superieur knowledge. Do you push heavy gears then?

Generally no, but at appropriate times yes!

Given that at times, especially when climbing, your cadence will be pulled away from your natural preferred cadence (usually downwards), when your cadence drops, what you are essentially doing is the same as riding in a big gear, pushing a high resistance at a slower rate therefore it makes absolute sense to train to be able to produce power over a wider range of cadences, at least for for limited periods of time.

 

[Crankarm]

Generally no, but at appropriate times yes!

Given that at times, especially when climbing, your cadence will be pulled away from your natural preferred cadence (usually downwards), when your cadence drops, what you are essentially doing is the same as riding in a big gear, pushing a high resistance at a slower rate therefore it makes absolute sense to train to be able to produce power over a wider range of cadences, at least for for limited periods of time.

Ok, if following what you say why have good climbers such as Froome and Nibali kept a high cadence and lower gear, they can literally drop other riders struggling with heavier gears on a climb or even in the same gear. Armstrong (doper) used to ride a high cadence as well. You surely see this can't you? If you push a heavy gear on a climb you ain't going to make it to the top or you'll quickly get dropped. Sprinters and TTers have big engines and can push heavier gears but climbing you definitely do not want to be pushing too heavier a gear. Think Cancellara not a good climber but can certainly push a big gear in a TT. If your cadence falls as you climb it is getting steeper or you are tiring so you drop to a lower sprocket preferably the next lowest so you MAINTAIN your cadence.

 

[Rob3rt]

Ok, if following what you say why have good climbers such as Froome and Nibali kept a high cadence and lower gear, they can literally drop other riders struggling with heavier gears on a climb or even in the same gear. Armstrong (doper) used to ride a high cadence as well. You surely see this can't you? If you push a heavy gear on a climb you ain't going to make it to the top or you'll quickly get dropped. Sprinters and TTers have big engines and can push heavier gears but climbing you definitely do not want to be pushing too heavier a gear. Think Cancellara not a good climber but can certainly push a big gear in a TT. If your cadence falls as you climb it is getting steeper or you are tiring so you drop to a lower sprocket preferably the next lowest so you MAINTAIN your cadence.

You might 1st consider the fact that they are riding stage races where they need to be able to do it day after day, i.e. outright speed of ascent is not the only concern. Then you may want to consider the dynamic of a bunch race situation where not only the ability to ascend quickly is of concern, but also the ability to accelerate to initiate or react to attacks. If it was a single effort up a short steep British hill, or indeed a typical clubrun route or sportive (i.e. the sort of thing most people on this forum will take part in), you would see completely different setups being utilised.

 

[Crankarm]

You might 1st consider the fact that they are riding stage races where they need to be able to do it day after day, i.e. outright speed of ascent is not the only concern. Then you may want to consider the dynamic of a bunch race situation where not only the ability to ascend quickly is of concern, but also the ability to accelerate to initiate or react to attacks. If it was a single effort up a short steep British hill, or indeed a typical clubrun route or sportive (i.e. the sort of thing most people on this forum will take part in), you would see completely different setups being utilised.

Yep more than likely as I passed these riders .

 

[Rob3rt]

Yep more than likely as I passed these riders riding a higher cadence .

Yeah I am sure you would twiddle your way to many hill climb victories

 

[Crankarm]

Yeah I am sure you would twiddle your way to many hill climb victories

I have a few but I don't like to brag .

 

[ayceejay]

Don't forget the psychological elephant element. If you regard hills as an opportunity you will approach it differently than if you talk yourself into struggling. This doesn't mean you don't have to work at the physical side but a positive attitude will help your progress too.

 

[50000tears]

Wow lots of great info guys, plenty for me to ponder. Thanks especially to Robert for your detailed breakdown. Might be simpler to break down my training routine so you can ascertain as to whether I have most bases covered. Only just started on this

Weekend - long ride, currently up to 50 miles, 55 tomorrow.
Day after long ride - recovery ride, low gear low speed just turning the legs over for 30-45 mins + core work
Day off
Threshold training - 2-3 efforts of 10 minute as hard as I can go for that period. Road or exercise bike + core work
Day off
Hill training - already covered
Day off or recovery ride + core work
Weekend again for long ride

With regard to training for hills without going up them, I think psychologically I would want to actually do the climbs where I can so that I can attack any I hit on my long rides with confidence and good pacing. As to climbing technique my cadence tends to be around 50-70 when climbing and 95% of the time I remain seated.

I should add that weight wise I still have some to lose having dropped 10kg so far this year. I am built for climbing though which is a blessing, as I have a low resting heart rate and will be just 63-65kg once my final few kg are shifted.

 

[MrGrumpy]

IMO and I am in no way a climbing goat, however I can say for sure that I have gotten quicker going up the hills due to doing more hills and pushing higher efforts on the flats. If doing flat rides then I try to push my average speed up which requires alot more effort than ambling along. Also as the OP said further up the thread, losing weight will improve your climbing. At the moment that is my downfall but I`m getting there

 

[Spoked Wheels]

Ehh? Where did this come from? I don't think anyone has. It is remarkably genteel and sedate at the moment unless you know something none of us don't ...................... Maybe you got the wrong thread?

MOD EDIT:
The post to which this refers has been deleted.

It also remains a reminder to everyone participating in giving advice to someone who wishes to improve his hill-climbing.

I must say that I was also surprised at the MOD warning, Heavy handed I thought, I have not seen anything that you don't see in hundreds of other threads.

 

[booze and cake]

You could try putting a few kg bags of sugar in your jersey pockets (you'll also have the supplies to dose up your tea/coffee at the cafe). Or ride with a ruksack with more staff than you need. I did this for years, the latter that is, and really noticed the difference when I started carrying only what I used. Honestly I used to carry spare training shoes, trousers, flask and all sorts.

I'm over 20kg more than your target weight, I like the analogy I once heard that: if I lost 20kg I would'nt climb like Andy Schleck (when he was off the sauce and finishing races) but if Andy Schleck had a 20kg ruksak he'd climb a lot more like me

 

[ColinJ]

I'm over 20kg more than your target weight, I like the analogy I once heard that: if I lost 20kg I would'nt climb like Andy Schleck (when he was off the sauce and finishing races) but if Andy Schleck had a 20kg ruksak he'd climb a lot more like me

Ha ha ... I was on a training camp with a mate in Spain once and he was teasing me about how slow l had been going up the big climb that morning. At the time, we were walking back from a supermarket, and were each carrying a 5 L container of water. I asked him to hold my bottle a second, so he was then holding 10 L, or 10 kg of water. I asked how fast he would go uphill with that strapped to the bike, and pointed out that I was about 20 kg overweight, or double the weight of water that he was holding.