Steering?

[PhilDawson8270]

Can you ride no hands?

But when you lean by force (for the pedant, you know I don't literally mean any force, but by brute force, ya know. Not using the nice eloquent controls of a bicycle). If you lean to the right, the front wheel deflects left as your leaning is applied behind the pivot of the steerer, this still counter steers.

The best way to prove this is to lock the handle bars. Or film the stem of the bike with a line painted on it while you ride no handed to watch the deflection.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajans/pub/pdffiles/SteerBikeAJP.PDF

That is an excellent description of the process, this applies not only to motorcycles, but to bicycles, and push a long scooters. It is applicable to all 2 wheel, tandem layout vehicles.

 

[Racing roadkill]

[QUOTE 4289885, member: 9609"]just tried it and the 9" grinder had no affect[/QUOTE]
Not heavy enough / dense enough / spinning fast enough to have an effect on the weight it's trying to turn.

 

[Racing roadkill]

Are you sure?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

He's wrong, that article is pretty much right.

 

[Dec66]

My bikes are fitted with an awsomigyrator system which means it always steers towards London.

You want to take that back, it's obviously f****d

 

[Racing roadkill]

You want to take that back, it's obviously f****d

I think he might have had a stalefastfoodsweattrampurinesmogymator, fitted, by mistake.

 

[Markymark]

I think he might have had a stalefastfoodsweattrampurinesmogymator, fitted, by mistake.

We save that stuff for near the stations to make northerners feel at home when they come down. They can't afford to visit the places Londoners frequent.

 

[MichaelW2]

[QUOTE 4289931, member: 45"]You can steer a pushbike by turning the bars in the direction you want to go, and balancing the bike to keep it upright.[/QUOTE]

I think it is the exact opposite. You steer bikes by leaning and use the steering to regain balance.

 

[PhilDawson8270]

I think it is the exact opposite. You steer bikes by leaning and use the steering to regain balance.

Have you read any of the articles in this thread? The wiki one posted is a good article for lay persons, if you want to read more about the physics, check the pdf I posted.

 

[User16625]

On a bike, at low speed, you steer left to go left; and right to go right.
At higher speed, you steer left to go right; and right to go left.
This set me thinking.
At what speed does the changeover occur? Is that speed variable? Is it dependent on wheel/tyre size? Do any other factors come into play to affect the changeover speed?

What kind of bike do you ride?

 

[Dirk]

I actually used to road race motorcycles at International level. For fast direction changes you have to countersteer - leaning has little effect.
Bicycles are no different.
Whether you actually consciously realise you are doing this is an entirely different subject.

 

[Racing roadkill]

I actually used to road race motorcycles at International level. For fast direction changes you have to countersteer - leaning has little effect.
Bicycles are no different.
Whether you actually consciously realise you are doing this is an entirely different subject.

The look of astonishment on people's faces, when I point this out, never fails to amuse me. It's only trumped, when they consciously try to do it, then end up in a heap.

 

[Ajax Bay]

It's countering the gyro effect of the spinning wheel.

I design high end gyros for military applications, and I've made a lot of money from it.

although gyro forces are there, they are not big enough to avoid getting drowned out in all the other forces involved.

I wonder if I could just check with the money making gyro guru/designer that is @Racing roadkill that he agrees with @Seevio that the gyro forces at work in the bicycle steering context are effectively negligible (with an emasculating effect on the first quote)?

 

[Racing roadkill]

I wonder if I could just check with the money making gyro guru/designer that is @Racing roadkill that he agrees with @Seevio that the gyro forces at work in the bicycle steering context are effectively negligible (with an emasculating effect on the first quote)?

They account for a small percentage of the forces ( about 12 percent ), but the problem is that the gyro effects come in, the very instant you apply steering torque, leading to an almost involuntary over reaction. This effect isn't 'negligible'. In fact it's for most people.

Here's a picture of me getting an award, from the queen, for a project I led involving military gyros, in 2008. I'm a lot lighter than I was then ( that's what countering gyro effects, whilst cycling does for you).

 

[Levo-Lon]

The latest point and squirt racing style of Marc Marqez shows the counter steering effect..fantastic to watch

 

[Ajax Bay]

On a bike, at low speed, you steer left to go left; and right to go right.
At higher speed, you steer left to go right; and right to go left.
This set me thinking.
At what speed does the changeover occur? Is that speed variable? Is it dependent on wheel/tyre size? Do any other factors come into play to affect the changeover speed?

So is the answer to the OP's question: that at all speeds, at the initiation of the turn, your handlebars turn left to go right; and right to go left.

Physics: To turn you have to accelerate the combined mass of the bike and rider towards the inside of the turn.
Hypothesis:
At low speed you lean to the left to go left, that turns the front wheel right slightly before you steer left to go left. And at speed the counter-steer is obviously much quicker and almost part of the lean, and after the turn has been thus initiated and one's into the turn, one steers (ie has the handlebars turned so the front wheel points to the inside of the turn). If the bend tightens the response should be more lean (with the associated countersteer albeit 'instinctive') and resist the inclination to 'just' turn the handlebars a bit more.