Some proper sentencing?

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glasgowcyclist

Charming but somewhat feckless
Location
Scotland
It will be of zero deterrence. People commit dangerous driving offences in their many thousands every day, confident that the chances of being detected by police are miniscule. What’s needed is a properly funded and resourced police service, with many more traffic patrols, unmarked and marked to make dangerous drivers feel it’s too risky to break the law. Oh, and a nationwide system whereby the public can submit video evidence of traffic offences to police for prosecution. The cops can’t be everywhere but the public can.
 

Cycleops

Legendary Member
Location
Accra, Ghana
Stiffer sentencing really is needed, especially when you read about cases like this: https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/insult-anthony-family-blast-porsche-18898052
Suspeneed sentence after killing a cyclist by dangerous driving, beggars belief.
 
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Drago

Drago

Legendary Member
It will be of zero deterrence. People commit dangerous driving offences in their many thousands every day, confident that the chances of being detected by police are miniscule. What’s needed is a properly funded and resourced police service, with many more traffic patrols, unmarked and marked to make dangerous drivers feel it’s too risky to break the law. Oh, and a nationwide system whereby the public can submit video evidence of traffic offences to police for prosecution. The cops can’t be everywhere but the public can.
absolutely, it will be of little deterrent effect. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong at all with punishing people for behaving badly, and while they are on ice the rest of us are safe from their murderous behaviour.
 
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Chris S

Legendary Member
Location
Birmingham
People around here have big bore exhausts and heavily tinted front windows that invalidate their insurance. The police could crush their cars if they could be bothered to do something about it.
 

icowden

Veteran
Location
Surrey
Stiffer sentencing really is needed, especially when you read about cases like this: https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/insult-anthony-family-blast-porsche-18898052
Suspeneed sentence after killing a cyclist by dangerous driving, beggars belief.

Absolutely. I mean the collected wisdom of Cyclechat clearly has a better idea of the appropriate punishment in this specific case then a Crown Court Judge who only has 5 years of legal training plus a minimum 5-7 years of experience as a Barrister, who has to follow sentencing guidelines laid down by the UK Sentencing Council when dealing with a prosecution case for death by careless driving under a specific offence, and who has heard a detailed presentation of the facts, mitigations and defence and prosecution arguments.

Sentencing by newspaper headline seems an eminently sensible approach. I would suggest that we arrange for a joint letter to the Justice Secretary. It's a shame it isn't still Liz Truss as I am sure she would have absolutely gone for it.

Alternatively we could actually try to understand the sentence...

Firstly the defendant pled guilty to Causing Death by Careless Driving. This was the offence which the CPS decided to prosecute. They did *not* try to get him for causing death by dangerous driving for example. The Judge must first consider the starting point. The maximum starting point is 36 weeks to 3 years custody.
Then aggravating factors must be taken into account - the driver was speeding. Then mitigating factors - the driver pled guilty from the beginning. And those are just the ones we know about from the newspaper article.

So it looks like the Judge went probably for the middle starting point 36 weeks custody to 2 years + high level community order, and worked it out from there. They clearly felt it would be more productive for the defendant to have a suspended sentence and carry out community service than to be placed in prison. Again, we have no knowledge of how or why the Judge came to that decision.

So does the sentence beggar belief? No. Would "tougher sentencing" have made a difference?

The changes being considered are:-

Drivers who kill others after speeding, racing or using a phone could receive life sentences under new legislation.
Those who cause death by careless driving under the influence of drink or drugs could also get a life sentence.

He falls under "speeding". But without the specifics of the sentencing guidelines there is nothing to suggest that this man would have received a longer sentence. Would it have been helpful to send him to prison for life?

If he had known he could get a life sentence, would he have acted differently? Almost certainly not. I very much doubt that he was thinking of sentencing guidelines whilst he was driving. Would it deter others from doing the same if he had received a life sentence? Probably not. It would have cost the tax payer £63,000 per year to house him in prison. Given that he pled guilty and likely showed remorse, is there a rehabilitation effect of sending him to prison? Again, probably not.

So what's the actual point of sending him to prison for 25 years (1/3 off for pleading guilty, + parole after 2/3rds of remaining, so cost £700,000 ish)?
 
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Deleted member 1258

Guest
absolutely, it will be of little deterrent effect. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong at all with punishing people for behaving badly, and while they are on ice the rest of us are safe from their murderous behaviour.

Without a deterrent effect nothing will change, at the moment people aren't worried about getting caught and will just do what they want, we need enough enforcement to make people think they could get caught, then we can think about making the punishment fit the crime.
 
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classic33

Leg End Member
People around here have big bore exhausts and heavily tinted front windows that invalidate their insurance. The police could crush their cars if they could be bothered to do something about it.
Donate them to the emergency services for public demonstration days, and/or for practicing on.
 

HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
He falls under "speeding". But without the specifics of the sentencing guidelines there is nothing to suggest that this man would have received a longer sentence. Would it have been helpful to send him to prison for life?

If he had known he could get a life sentence, would he have acted differently? Almost certainly not. I very much doubt that he was thinking of sentencing guidelines whilst he was driving. Would it deter others from doing the same if he had received a life sentence? Probably not. It would have cost the tax payer £63,000 per year to house him in prison. Given that he pled guilty and likely showed remorse, is there a rehabilitation effect of sending him to prison? Again, probably not.

So what's the actual point of sending him to prison for 25 years (1/3 off for pleading guilty, + parole after 2/3rds of remaining, so cost £700,000 ish)?

How do you know this?
Drink driver rates, although too high still, have fallen dramatically since 1980 and that is including much increased road side testing.

They clamped down hard on drink drivers and this surely had an effect.

Clamping down hard on killer drivers is simply the only way forward to encourage better better behaviour on our roads and if that means tougher sentencing then so be it. You seem to concentrate hard on how much it costs to send people to prison without considering how much it has cost the victim, their family and whatever contribution the victim has made or may have made to society...
 

icowden

Veteran
Location
Surrey
Clamping down hard on killer drivers is simply the only way forward to encourage better better behaviour on our roads and if that means tougher sentencing then so be it. You seem to concentrate hard on how much it costs to send people to prison without considering how much it has cost the victim, their family and whatever contribution the victim has made or may have made to society...

Costs and prison capacity are important. They are paid for by us, the tax payers. What is the point of prison? To house those who would otherwise be a threat to society and to rehabilitate those that can be rehabilitated so that they do not re-offend but can be a contributing member of society.

Drink driver rates, although too high still, have fallen dramatically since 1980 and that is including much increased road side testing.

But that isn't because people are terrified of sentencing. That's because people know that there is a high risk of getting caught, and that if they have an accident, the penalty will be much worse.

The archetypal example of "deterrent sentencing" is the Death Penalty. How well would you say that is working in the US? If it was truly a deterrent then they would have a very low murder rate right?
 
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HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
But that isn't because people are terrified of sentencing. That's because people know that there is a high risk of getting caught, and that if they have an accident, the penalty will be much worse.

The archetypal example of "deterrent sentencing" is the Death Penalty. How well would you say that is working in the US? If it was truly a deterrent then they would have a very low murder rate right?

Exactly. So it works...
 
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Drago

Drago

Legendary Member
Without a deterrent effect nothing will change, at the moment people aren't worried about getting caught and will just do what they want, we need enough enforcement to make people think they could get caught, then we can think about making the punishment fit the crime.
When they're all in prison, it will change.

Even batter, if anyone who lost their licence lost it permanetly then the roads would quickly change for the better. You actually have to work quite hard at losing a licence, so there's no reason to blest if youmgot a ban and were never allowed to drive again.

As for the desth penalty, many murderers do go on to murder again after their release. The difference there is the dead ones don't do so.
 
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