So, it has come to pass ***CWG SPOILER***

[Skip Madness]

2 tier system then. Take the risk and , if you re caught repent and it wont be deemed to serious. What utter B****cks.

There's nothing wrong with a two-tier system in some circumstances where it has a basis in people's actions. And it's not bollocks when a convicted drug cheat may be persuaded to name suppliers and reveal assistance or encouragement they had in doping.

Ban them for life. What is the matter with you people you won tgo the final yard, will you !

People are capable of making mistakes, and I don't think it's fair that anyone should have a potential career taken away from them for making such a mistake, especially when it's often under the pressure of those around them. For what it's worth, I would extend the current first-offence bans (I'd say four of five years, maybe down to two or three for sufficient cooperation with the authorities), but to throw away the key for a first offence is wrong. Second offence, sure, throw them out for good.

As for any offence meaning you shouldn't be able to represent your country... pfft. I don't agree with it (it seems arbitrary to say that a rider is OK to ride for a trade team but that somehow national teams are hallowed ground - surely they're either OK to ride or their not), but even if I did, it's not much of a punishment for a road cyclist anyway, especially not the men. David Millar is banned from the Olympics. Even if he were banned from the World Championships too, he could still console himself with the Grand Tours, one-day classics and all the other races on the calendar. Wah.

 

[lukesdad]

The problem is there because the penalties are not severe enough. The first offence system wont stand up either because that sends the message its OK to use them untill you re caught the first time. Millar didn t make a mistake,he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[amaferanga]

[QUOTE 1207707"]
No, there are 2 year suspensions.

These are served, then if you are American, Russian, French, Italian or Spanish people bring it up everytime you win something, but if you are Scottish you are deemed to be a good egg and we all say nothing more about it (and if you do mention it, other Scottish people call you a troll).
[/quote]

He doped, admitted more than he had to (losing a gold medal in the process) and now speaks out against doping. That's a good thing for cycling.

Lifetime bans simply aren't possible anyway I believe under employment law or something.

I don't see David Millar getting any special treatment amongst the dopers who have been caught, owned up, shown remorse and then spoken out against doping. Fellow dopers like.... em.

At the end of the day most of the pro peleton are almost certainly on some kind of doping programme as are many, many athletes in sports that are still burying their heads in the sand when it comes to doping so personally I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with David Millar winning a gold medal at the Mickey Mouse games.

 

[amaferanga]

The problem is there because the penalties are not severe enough. The first offence system wont stand up either because that sends the message its OK to use them untill you re caught the first time. Millar didn t make a mistake,he knew exactly what he was doing.

So how come in countries that still have the death penalty people still commit murder? Surely these countries would have much lower rates of murder than countries without the death penalty? In case you're not aware this isn't generally the case.

So no matter how great the penalties are, people will still take the risk, especially since there is STILL a very small risk of testing positive if you're on a properly managed programme.

 

[amaferanga]

[QUOTE 1207718"]
Nonsense. You'll be telling us next that life long driving bans and being banned from keeping animals infringe peoples Human Rights.

I would be very careful with that last paragraph as well.
[/quote]


Well it may or may not be true. What is happening more is that cyclists are getting 20 odd year bans for a second offence. Doesn't seem to stop the doping though.

As for the last paragraph - I doubt anyone could prove that its untrue.

 

[Chuffy]

:troll:
Hoots mon, I've found a new smiley!

Maggot, you're spouting simplistic Daily Mail bollocks. Do put a sock in it old chap, you should know better than that.

 

[Noodley]

:troll:
Hoots mon, I've found a new smiley!

You are Rob Roy McGregor and I claim five of your finest haggis for me!

 

[Chuffy]

You are Rob Roy McGregor and I claim five of your finest haggis for me!

Sorry Noodles, I'm not actually Scottish. You had to find out one day...

 

[Noodley]

Sorry Noodles, I'm not actually Scottish. You had to find out one day...

But you must be, only Scotsmen are allowed to be opposed to User76 - the evidence is writ all over this thread where <User76 imagines> only people from Scotland disagree with him....it's BRAVEHEART gawn maaaddd.

 

[Ball]

A lifetime ban is such an unbelievably harsh penalty to pay though, particularly in the case of someone like Millar who has come back a completely new person and actually is now one of the greatest role models in the sport in my opinion.

I don't think it's quite as straightforward as banning every cyclist that gets caught for life (we may find ourselves without a peloton at the next TdF ). But in all seriousness, punishing individuals doesn't seem to me to be the way forward, especially given the circumstances in which so many of them seem to start doping. I think there needs to be a more fundamental overhaul, or expose of the real culprits here, and they are the teams, the doctors, the managers, the people that put pressure on young, vulnerable and highly stressed riders in one of the most physically demanding sports in the world.

Everyone deserves a second chance. I admit that this poses a problem when you consider that if a rider is never caught he may continue doping, only changing his ways if and when he is finally caught. But fine, if that's what it takes I still think people should be able to learn from their mistakes. And they are just that, mistakes. Moral mistakes made under immense pressure.

After all, it's up to us who we look up to.

[QUOTE 1207723"]
Chuffy, Daily Mail bollocks? What? I'm not trying to stop the flood of immigrants or reducing the pension!

I am simply proposing that anyone caught doping should be banned from professional sport for life. Footballers, cricketers, cyclists, athletes whatever. Young folk look up to these professionals, whether they like it or not they are role models. They are happy to take the money when times are good, is it really too much to ask they don't take drugs?
[/quote]

 

[Hont]

I'm a bit conflicted about lifetime bans. I think the penalty should be longer than 2 years but then again I believe everyone deserves a second chance - especially given the culture of cycling and the pressure placed on athletes to perform. It is not always as straightforward as a person deciding to cheat to win. Lifetime for second offence I'm perfectly happy with.

David Millar is a good example. If there was a lifetime ban I doubt he would have confessed - they had no evidence AFAIK other than an empty EPO bottle, which proves very little. He voluntarily chose to come clean, as he clearly was not happy with himself and has been a positive influence against doping ever since. You also need to bear in mind the culture in the sport when he started. He has reported colleagues mocking him for trying to win clean, which shows how endemic doping was then. It would be very easy to fall into the mindset of feeling that you are "levelling the playing field" rather than cheating.

Hopefully - and Millar has been one of those who has promoted this change - this is no longer the situation.

And I'm not Scottish either.

 

[philipbh]

David Millar is a good example. If there was a lifetime ban I doubt he would have confessed - they had no evidence AFAIK other than an empty EPO bottle, which proves very little. He voluntarily chose to come clean, as he clearly was not happy with himself and has been a positive influence against doping ever since. You also need to bear in mind the culture in the sport when he started.

There was the phone tap evidence of course - DM initialy denied doping and then changed his story with the revelation of the phone tap evidence.

BTW - although he was given a 2 year ban by the BCF (IIRC) - there is a bye law in the British Olympic Association rules about doping that allow them to issue a life time ban

 

[Noodley]

[QUOTE 1207730"]
I know what you Scotch buggers are like. [/quote]

No ye dinnae, cos if ye did ye wouldnae hae started this thread!

 

[Flying_Monkey]

[QUOTE 1207731"]
No they don't. Would you want Harold Shipman as your GP, or Beverly Allet as your babysitter, or Tony Blair as the Prime Minister again?
[/quote]

I think you are getting rather desperate when you start comparing someone who got caught for doping in cycling to Tony Blair.

 

[Smokin Joe]

Assuming Millar won his gold clean, what's the problem?

He got caught, put his hands up and served his time, job done. It's how justice works. There are far worse things people do than cheating in a bike race and we accept that they are entitled to live a full life once they've completed their punishment, good luck to DM.