So Boris is running for Mayor of London.

[bof]

Whether Oyster is a good thing or not, it is still wrong to force people to use it by making fares paid in cash extortionate.

Why - since the card cuts costs why not make it cheaper than cash? I cant quote savings for urban transport, but pre-internet in an industry I worked in for a long time, airlines, 22% of an average ticket's cost (more than fuel - and this figure is engraved on my heart as I was developing systems to shave the cost) was wrapped up in 'marketing' which was mainly processing the ticket, paying the travel agent etc. etc. rather than advertising etc.

As for bus service quality, have you tried waiting for a 129 at North Greenwich lately? Average service interval is supposed to be 5 and a half minutes. It is far from unusual to wait for 25. Or, rather, say "Sod this" and walk...

I can say the opposite about routes local to me, the 266 is way more reliable than it was 5-6 years ago.

 

[spen666]

Ken was right on one thing. He opposed the PPPs and two out of three have ended up being disasters ....

What are the 3???????

The 2 tube maintenance contracts and what?

 

[spen666]

...

Oyster Card is a good thing, it reduces queuing to buy tickets for the casual traveller, simplifies ticket choice and saves people effing about with small change to make a bus journey and slowing the bus down. It also should reduce costs by cutting the number of ticketing staff on the underground, but now the system is demonstrating that this is possible, the unions are coming out with spurious reasons for continuing with them in places where they have virtually nothing to do.

It may be a good thing, but it is wrong that I as a london council tax payer am subsidizing some other users of public transport to use a system that I am oprevented from using as I live near a train station not a tube station and you can't use the oystercard at the train station

 

[bof]

Ken was right on one thing. He opposed the PPPs and two out of three have ended up being disasters ....

What are the 3???????

The 2 tube maintenance contracts and what?[/quote]

The third is the maintenance contract with the other consortium (Tubelines) and running OK as the principals are only acting as managing agents and dishing out the work as competitive tenders.

Incidentally the two principals are Bechtel and Ferrovia (US/Spanish) - construction is notoriously uncompetitive since international competition is uncommon - the other consortium was the usual snout in the public trough suspects.


Fully agree that its absurd that Oyster cant be used on the trains. I believe it will be by 2009. The system of shared ticketing was dismantled IIRC shortly after rail privatisation and I think it was Ken who put it in place in his GLC days.

 

[spen666]

Ken was right on one thing. He opposed the PPPs and two out of three have ended up being disasters ....

What are the 3???????

The 2 tube maintenance contracts and what?

The third is the maintenance contract with the other consortium (Tubelines) and running OK as the principals are only acting as managing agents and dishing out the work as competitive tenders.

Incidentally the two principals are Bechtel and Ferrovia (US/Spanish) - construction is notoriously uncompetitive since international competition is uncommon - the other consortium was the usual snout in the public trough suspects.
...quote]

Sorry, I'm a bit confused

PPP1 = Metronet
PPP2 = Tubelines

PP3= ?????????????????????????????????

 

[NickM]

...since the card cuts costs why not make it cheaper than cash?

But that's not what has happened. Rather, cash prices have been deliberately inflated to silly, unaffordable levels in order to force people to use the card.

And it's not even as though the card represents good value. My various London-resident (but widely travelled) European friends all think that the cost of public transport (via the card) here is very high by comparison both with their home cities and the other cities they have lived in on the Continent.

 

[zimzum42]

But London is so much bigger than any other European city, you can't compare fairly..........

 

[NickM]

But London is so much bigger than any other European city, you can't compare fairly..........

Can't you? Aren't the majority of journeys either local or radial?

I might be getting out of my depth here, not being the owner of an anorak... but I do know the 129 is rubbish...

 

[zimzum42]

Most of the routes for buses are really long. There is a flat fare system which makes things a lot simpler, but can mean journeys are of varying value.

The buses are massively improved from what they used to be, especially night buses.

I think ken is a muppet, but I have to admit he has done well with the buses. Everything else is pretty much a nightmare.

I don't know the journey breakdown, but I would say most journeys aren't local, they are from zones2/3 to zone 1, say Hackney to the centre, for example.

For £1, it's not bad.

And oyster has speeded them up massively, no more people messing with change at the driver's window........

Plus, it means Johnny Foreigner is paying over the odds most times, can't be a bad thing, about time too, I'm fed up of getting charged tourist prices abroad whilst they all pay the same as us over here.......

 

[bof]

Sorry, I'm a bit confused

PPP1 = Metronet
PPP2 = Tubelines

PP3= ?????????????????????????????????

PPP1= Metronet
PPP2= Metronet
PPP3= Tubelines

(the two Metronet hold are each for a different collection of tube lines)

This is IMO a major scandal. Basically each principal (5 or so of them) put in £70m), they have acquired a £2bn overrun between them (which is money they are paying themselves). They then put Metronet into administration, losing £70m, but TfL is obliged to pick up the debts, so they are enriched by around £400m each for putting £70m into the pot, the £400m coming from the taxpayer.

Because it is a quite complicated shell game and doesnt involve sex or high jinks, they and the man responsible (Gordon Brown) will get away with it. I suppose also its like shoplifting from Tesco's - no individual is hurt much we all just pay slightly higher prices and taxes.

 

[bof]

...since the card cuts costs why not make it cheaper than cash?

But that's not what has happened. Rather, cash prices have been deliberately inflated to silly, unaffordable levels in order to force people to use the card.

And it's not even as though the card represents good value. My various London-resident (but widely travelled) European friends all think that the cost of public transport (via the card) here is very high by comparison both with their home cities and the other cities they have lived in on the Continent.[/quote]

Because the subsidy that goes into operating public transport in the UK is actually very low and a good deal that does is pissed away on lawyers and consultants - for instance the PPP deals (previous post) cost £500 MILLION in legal and consulting fees to set up and are a complete crock of shite for the taxpayer.