shimano gears - shoot?

[simon_brooke]

Nope. Been using shim and campag for at least 15 years - and huret/stronglight/suntour/sachs before that. My personal belief if that Shimano quality has gone down as the price has rocketed. 10 years ago my trainer commuter was 105 and it was really good quality. Now it isn't I think. I have always preferred the operation of Campag, and feel it to be better made and more durable. I really couldn't give a fig what other people think - they can ride whatever they like, it makes not a jot of difference to me. I have though, seen bugger all people changing from Campy to Shim, all else being equal. Similarly, I've a MTB with X9 - it is, in my opinion, far better than the modern Shimano stuff. Which, by the way, is now absurdly expensive; it's better designed and better to use. But Shimano is like Windows. There are far better systems out there, but for some reason the defult setting is Shimano.

Almost completely agree. My first bike derailleur bikes had Huret mechs; I desperately wanted Campag in those days (and drillium) but could not possibly afford it. Part of the reason I ride Campagnolo on my road bikes today is because now I can afford it. But another part of the reason is that it is still very well engineered. If the pawl springs in a Campagnolo ergo lever wear out, you can just replace them (and like many Campagonolo spare parts, they aren't even very expensive). If the pawl on an STI lever goes, you have to bin the lever.

As I've explained in a different post upthread, the SRAM system pulls more cable for each gear position (actually twice as much) as Shimano, and so is less vulnerable to minor imprecision in the cable run. That's a real technical benefit, but aside from that it seems to me that at the X.9 level and above the SRAM kit is just very well engineered.

Low end groupsets from Shimano are terrible, but that's partly because neither SRAM nor Campag compete at the bottom end of the market. However, price for price, I do think Campagnolo and SRAM kit is generally better, and certainly at the top end of the market Shimano just don't have a group which competes on quality with Record or Red. Mind you, whether anyone actually needs the level of quality Record offers is a matter for debate!

 

[swee'pea99]

Some interesting points - and for me at least some education - on this thread. Two in particular: one, I didn't know Shimano quality has gone down. Having only ever had bits cannibalised off old bikes, the Shimano stuff I swear by - all 600 and 105 - seems impeccable to me. But then it is all 20 years old, give or take. And two, the 'whether anyone needs the level of quality Record offers' one...having, as I say, relied on 600 and 105, I've often wondered how, say, Dura Ace could be better. My 105 brakes are excellent: light, precise, strong and reliable - how would you go about making 'better' brakes?

 

[bonj2]

Yawn. ShimaNo didn't make multi gear till the 50s - Campy had been at it a good while by then. Campy shared commonality with other systems at the time.

ShimaNo used a very aggressive patent protection regieme (477 patents to Campy's 45) to ensure that other manufacturers couldn't be compatible.s road - get out of way upstart.

why dont' campag make mtb stuff though... it may be a prejudiced perception, but for me that conveys a perception that they are only good at making light and dainty parts and not tough chunky stuff, and that they put their emphasis on nice looks rather than resistant to breakage.


I urge anyone next time they are in an LBS to pick up a sram MTB mech, and pick up a shimano one in the other hand. The chunkiness and quality feel of the sram one is noticeably different.

 

[Tim Bennet.]

how would you go about making 'better' brakes?

When evolving a range, you have to cover three areas:
Entry level: Good enough but weight and performance compromised to make it cheap.
Mid range: Top performance, but cost restraints means weight is compromised.
High End: Top performance, but price is increasingly ignored in pursuit of light weight.

So often high end stuff doesn't work any better than mid range, but it will be lighter. You pays your money . .

 

[yenrod]

rapid rise rear mech not been shifting properly for a bit, then on a rocky descent at the bottom i find the top jockey wheel has fallen off. Thought the two could be related. So get a new one.

Still not shifting right. Set it up completely correctly, including setting the b-tension screw (have to back it right off as i run a 12-28), setting limit screws, then setting cable tension. But when the cable is taut enough to switch from 1 to 2, it's not slack enough to switch from 9 to 8. Slack enough to switch from 9 to 8, and it needs two index positions to switch from 1 to 2.

So put a sram one on and new sram shifter, shifts absolutely perfectly first time without even any cable tension adjustment. Shifts into each gear promptly when the shifter is in the index position for that gear.
The sram mech feels chunkier and better made. Even in detail, like the limit screws are bigger, the b tension adjuster is an actual allen key bolt rather than a screw, and the cage just feels stronger and better quality.

I'm thinking the shitmano shifter must have had it, as every other possible reason for the crap shifting has been eliminated - can't be that i'm setting it up wrong, as the sram setup works absolutely fine first time. Can't be the new mech as it's brand new. Can't be the cables as they're new(ish). so by process of elimination the shifter must have in some way had it.

my scott is now my only bike with shimano gears, and that has got a new rear mech after the old one SNAPPED clean off right through the body at the point where the limit screws go in.

these two pieces of misfortune are leading me to the general opinion that shimano gears are shite ...

Listen Bonjy ive used to buy campag BB's and they lasted as far as the end of the driveway.

Nuff said !

 

[peanut]

I ran cheap end Mirage and Veloche groupset on two of my bikes for 5 years or so and it always worked reliably enough but the finish on that level is simply apalling really abysmal. Crude sharp edged unfinished un polished and the finish on Campag cassette sprockets wears off in a few days and looks a nasty dirty grey colour.
I recently binned all my Campag stuff and switched to Shimano. It may be more expensive but it is more elegant better designed and better finished model for model throughout the range.

 

[Bigtwin]

why dont' campag make mtb stuff though.

They did, but by them ShimaNo had the market and patents stitched up, so they stopped.

 

[Bigtwin]

Listen Bonjy ive used to buy campag BB's and they lasted as far as the end of the driveway.

Nuff said !

Indeed - get some one competent to fit them, or don't buy them in plain wrappers off market barrows.

 

[Bigtwin]

I recently binned all my Campag stuff and switched to Shimano. It may be more expensive but it is more elegant better designed and better finished model for model throughout the range.

Good point. That Chorus and Record stuff is just shite, and all those cheap and user serviceable parts are frankly a piss-take. And that stupid trimable front derail is just the work of a dickwit.

Proably why you never see anyone racing with it.

 

[peanut]

If the pawl springs in a Campagnolo ergo lever wear out, you can just replace them (and like many Campagonolo spare parts, they aren't even very expensive). If the pawl on an STI lever goes, you have to bin the lever.

!

thats technically correct Simon but i wouldn't recommend anyone take one apart to service it. I tried to fix my friends Record 10spd lever and ended up breaking it and buying him a replacement and I fix digital cameras and laptops so I'm pretty handy at fixing stuff. Nightmare

 

[dellzeqq]

I've completely ignored my Dura-Ace stuff for over six years, other than the occasional clean, and the (very) occasional cable change. It works beautifully, including the rapid downshift, which will do two or three gears as and when you wish. There is a little rattle in the left hand shifter, and some day or other I'm going to have to buy a pair (that's poor) and change them, but even at trade it will be a while. The drive chain (big chainring, chain and cassette) gets changed every spring.

The price has rocketed, and currency movements don't account for all of the rocketing.

 

[Bigtwin]

thats technically correct Simon but i wouldn't recommend anyone take one apart to service it. I tried to fix my friends Record 10spd lever and ended up breaking it and buying him a replacement and I fix digital cameras and laptops so I'm pretty handy at fixing stuff. Nightmare

All of the exploded diagrams and service guides are on the internet. It's join the dots stuff. No special tools or skills required at all. As they point out, it's a 30 min job

http://www.campyonly.com/howto/ergo_rebuild.html

"All in all, our rebuild process took about an hour. We could probably do it in half the time; we spent lots of time filing the thin washer (see above) and tracking down a few little items that fell on the floor (don't do the rebuild on carpeting!). The results, by the way, were amazing. The lever shifts better than it did when it was new, and our ErgoBrain now displays shifts flawlessly.

So, if you're reasonably good with a few simple tools, have an hour or so to spare, and want to be the only guy on your block to successfully rebuild an Ergo lever, give it a try. You'll be glad you did."​

 

[02GF74]

The price has rocketed, and currency movements don't account for all of the rocketing.

indeed, make shimano stuff less attractive - my eyes is roaming more to SRAM now .... but I have investged too much in shimano gear to change over.