Segregated, none-broken, cycle lanes on all A roads by 2020

[swansonj]

That is the only circumstance under which I see taxis as fulfilling a public transport functiom, as opposed to a private one.

I've heard this argument before, and I don't think I can have understood it properly. if I want to get to one of my company's remote locations, I can drive - undeniably "private". Or I can train, Brompton across London, train, Brompton for final stretch. Or I can train, underground across London, train, and taxi. it feels to me as if the Brompton and the taxi both serve the same function of enabling an essentially public as opposed to private transport journey, and that is a "public transport function"?

 

[martint235]

Segregation? As with the many above, no thanks!
More 20 speed limits, YES
Better driving test, YES
More Car-free zones, YES
Better Public transport, YES

I'd rather not have 20mph limits, I like cycling quicker than that.

 

[nickprior]

I remain to be convinced that a physically segregated lane (eg a raised kerb separating off an area of road) would be in any way sustainable. Let's assume that there is actually room to install thing. Now, having got it, how long will it take for it to become unusable by virtue of its secondary role as dustbin? Grit, broken glass, leaves etc etc. Cars on roads do perform a housekeeping role as well close passes. Who will keep the segregated cycle lane clean and where does their budget come from? When did you last see a road cleaner? They can be bad enough when they are not segregated.

And then there's compulsion. How long before segregated lanes become mandatory no matter what speed one is cycling at?

 

[swansonj]

It is still one man one car occupying a disproportionate amount of road space.

Agreed. Perhaps we should take a hint from the Gay Paris thread and move away from dichotomies, in this case of "public" versus "private". In my case, I think a journey conducted on three different trains for let's say 190 miles plus a taxi for the last 10 miles has a predominantly public character. But the learning point, for me, is that the existence of a taxi system is what enables me to do 190 of the 200 miles by public transport as opposed to drive the whole 200 miles.

Whereas, in London, I agree use of taxis is predominantly of essentially "private" character. I think it must be three or four years since I used one, but I have used them
- for an early morning meeting to save getting out of bed even earlier
- late at night because I simply wanted to get to the station as quickly as possible and didn't care how selfish I was to do that
- for convenience when three or four colleagues were going to the same meeting
- when I was recovering from a broken leg and couldn't face the underground
In each of those cases, except possibly the last one, I agree that a taxi is not much different to a private car in terms of public versus private.

 

[martint235]

Why would the 20mph limit apply to cyclists?

I know that it doesn't. However I feel that campaigning to have a speed limit to slow other road users whilst cyclists are free to ignore it will just provide another stick for cyclists to be hit with.

The speed limit laws should apply to all road users.

 

[srw]

On the sort of roads where a 20mph limit is appropriate it should apply to all traffic, cyclists included. In fact these are exactly the sort of roads where I'd suggest cyclists stick to 20mph for their own safety as well as the safety of others.

 

[Davidc]

Praps we all have different needs according to our environment and the kinds of riding we do. Us happy, jeans n' old T shirt, slow pootlers are maybe more inclined to enjoy getting about away from cars hairing past, within an inch of our handle bars at 70 mph, than our Lycra clad cousins?

I'm well into that category (not jeans though, too rough) and you can see my view above.

Get some training, read cyclecraft. If you're having problems most of it is probably riding technique.

There are roads where cycling isn't a good idea, few and far between and normally there's an alternative cycling route.

I'm not against segregated lanes in places that need them, but the suggestion that they should be put on all A roads is in my opinion misminded.

 

[Amanda P]

It's a good idea in principle, but in practice? Even NL, DK and DE don't have cycle lanes on all main roads.

But go there and take a look. Or better still, have a cycle around and a drive around. It's not just about the cycle routes - it's about where they are, where they go, how pleasant they are to use, and how well-maintained they are.

Yes, there are some roads where there's a cycle route and where you're not allowed to cycle on the road. But the routes are good enough that there's no earthly reason you'd want to. Equally, clubs riding in packs and roadies spin along on the roads and no-one cares or minds.

The questions about space, cost and so forth were just the same in those enlightened countries, but there was the political will to make them happen anyway - sometimes against resolute opposition. And they're used, and as a result everyone rides a bike sometimes - or knows someone who does. So cyclists aren't an out-group as they are here - they could be your mother or cousin or the girl next door.

 

[Glow worm]

I'm well into that category (not jeans though, too rough) and you can see my view above.

Get some training, read cyclecraft. If you're having problems most of it is probably riding technique.

There are roads where cycling isn't a good idea, few and far between and normally there's an alternative cycling route.

I'm reasonably OK tbh, as a 3-4000 mile a year cyclist, and able to battle my way through. Its just that I would much rather be away from fast traffic where reasonably possible, simply cos it's a hell of a lot more pleasant. As I said before I don't really know what the answer is- it was more of a shout for the non roadie types like what I am - and the newbies who don't really get a look in. We're not all racing about like our arses are on fire and many of us, I'm relieved to say, still think Strava is a town in Serbia. But on here, it's the 'must get there yesterday' lot who seem to shout the loudest.

Realistically, a Dutch type cycling infrastructure is never going to happen here, but then neither is a radical change in driver attitudes to us - at least not in my lifetime. So we're kind of stuck in limbo with all the half arsed 'farcilities' we're all familair with that fail to entice new cyclists, as well as drivers who would happily run us down if they knew they'd get away with it. Crap innit!

 

[Glow worm]

The questions about space, cost and so forth were just the same in those enlightened countries, but there was the political will to make them happen anyway - sometimes against resolute opposition. And they're used, and as a result everyone rides a bike sometimes - or knows someone who does. So cyclists aren't an out-group as they are here - they could be your mother or cousin or the girl next door.

Spot on.

 

[middleagecyclist]

Have any doubters/opposers of segregated cycle facilities actually used of the quality infrastructure in the Netherlands? I think it exists along about 21% of the road network there and cycle use is evidently higher across a wider range of the population. Why would this kind of investment be a problem in the UK? (should the political/societal will here be forthcoming of course).

 

[theclaud]

Have any doubters/opposers of segregated cycle facilities actually used of the quality infrastructure in the Netherlands? I think it exists along about 21% of the road network there and cycle use is evidently higher across a wider range of the population. Why would this kind of investment be a problem in the UK? (should the political/societal will here be forthcoming of course).

I'm more worried about the fact that so much of it looks like a vision of hell:

 

[middleagecyclist]

I'm more worried about the fact that so much of it looks like a vision of hell

This is your vision of Hell compared to mixing it with 70+mph traffic on NSL DC's? You got to be kidding!

 

[srw]

Realistically, a Dutch type cycling infrastructure is never going to happen here, but then neither is a radical change in driver attitudes to us - at least not in my lifetime. So we're kind of stuck in limbo with all the half arsed 'farcilities' we're all familair with that fail to entice new cyclists, as well as drivers who would happily run us down if they knew they'd get away with it. Crap innit!

On your second point I make you wrong. In central London driver attitudes have already changed. I can get away with manoeuvres I could never have got away with 5 years ago. And because enough of the drivers on the roads I do my other riding on (all home counties) spend time in London and see cyclists regularly enough, attitudes are beginning to change there too. In a few years it may even reach rural East Anglia.

 

[srw]

This is your vision of Hell compared to mixing it with 70+mph traffic on NSL DC's? You got to be kidding!

False dichotomy alert! At home those roads would be a 30mph single carriageway, lined with retail parks. A different hell.