Quality v Cost?

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adamhearn

Veteran
I just wouldn't pay £1200 for a Cannondale when pretty much the same bike is available for £750 elsewhere.
In all sectors there's an increased cost associated with a brand be that bicycles, cars or tins of beans. You do have to wonder why a brand is more expensive than another but it'll include hidden stuff like R&D, marketing and sponsorship deals as well as less hidden stuff like lifetime frame warranties, etc.

Companies are driven by profit rather than altruism and consolidating manufacturing overseas is simply the latest way to squeeze production costs. As long as the company defines the quality it expects of the factory and ensures that is maintained, where the product is made makes no material difference. Of course most would like to support local economies but that's a moral issue where you can vote with your wallet contents.

The video was interesting although the voice over/sub titles were fairly amusing at times :smile:

I read a couple of years back that their smooth welds finish was only found higher up the range rather than on all models. It does seem that the brand is maxing out their savings to the detriment of the product that will eventually undermine confidence/sales.
 
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JPBoothy

JPBoothy

Veteran
Location
Cheshire
In all sectors there's an increased cost associated with a brand be that bicycles, cars or tins of beans. You do have to wonder why a brand is more expensive than another but it'll include hidden stuff like R&D, marketing and sponsorship deals as well as less hidden stuff like lifetime frame warranties, etc.

Companies are driven by profit rather than altruism and consolidating manufacturing overseas is simply the latest way to squeeze production costs. As long as the company defines the quality it expects of the factory and ensures that is maintained, where the product is made makes no material difference. Of course most would like to support local economies but that's a moral issue where you can vote with your wallet contents.

The video was interesting although the voice over/sub titles were fairly amusing at times :smile:

I read a couple of years back that their smooth welds finish was only found higher up the range rather than on all models. It does seem that the brand is maxing out their savings to the detriment of the product that will eventually undermine confidence/sales.
The welds are definitely a bit more lumpy these days, particularly on the lower end Synapse/CAAD 8 models (I am constantly maxing the magnification on ebay + Gumtree), which confuses me some what as I thought a model range usually shared the same Ally frames, but just improved the components as the price increased. With the exception of the CAAD 10/12 that is.

I am aware of the Cannondale brand now following the cheaper China route, and I believe that the CAAD9 may have been the last model from the USA. Is it correct that GIANT are now quite literally the biggest bike frame producer?

On the subject of 'shared frames', I have spotted a few cheapish Synapse + CAAD8 lower end models on ebay that I could easily upgrade component wise if they do indeed have the same frames as their more expensive older brothers. Does anyone know much on that subject?
 
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JPBoothy

JPBoothy

Veteran
Location
Cheshire
I'm not sure I want to post this but many if not all Cannondales are made by fuji-ta of China. The largest bicycle manufacturer in the world, something like 17 million bicycles per year. I'm a big fan of this actual manufacturer but they cater for all customers high and low quality. Pacific cycles in the USA who own the Cannondale brand nowadays obviously dictate which components are fitted, frame geometry etc. I'm sure they are under huge pressure to maintain their perceived brand quality yet source as cheaply as possible. As if often the case you get quality fade, as the perception of the brand quality drops they have to drop prices to keep selling, a vicious circle. Maybe in ten years Walmart/Asda will have Cannondale as their exclusive shop brand. In the US many brands are under pressure to be direct sellers bypassing dealers altogether and that is another option. To summarise don't confuse the quality american made classic Cannondales with the chinese models. It's pretty clear you now perceive Cannondale as lower quality than they were, rightly so to be honest and that fits the reality of the situation exactly. I'd still buy a Cannondale myself but I would judge it on the components quality and price and the brand would be a bonus if Cannondale. I just wouldn't pay £1200 for a Cannondale when pretty much the same bike is available for £750 elsewhere.

You can watch their video here;


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yn5kIpIrv0

They will probably be selling BMW's / AUDI's + JAG's in Walmart soon as they too no longer seem to be the rich mans toy judging by how many you see on the road (and through the odd hedge!).

Sorry to mention those nasty four wheeled things on a cycling Forum :blush:
 

screenman

Squire
They will probably be selling BMW's / AUDI's + JAG's in Walmart soon as they too no longer seem to be the rich mans toy judging by how many you see on the road (and through the odd hedge!).

Sorry to mention those nasty four wheeled things on a cycling Forum :blush:

You just mentioned the three main agents amongst my many customers who sell the most cars.
 
Location
London


My 9spd was a flat-bar Aluminium Ribble framed mish mash of parts that was as quick as hell and never let me down. Hindsight eh :sad:
Haven't looked in a while but fair to assume that they no longer sell anything as lowly sweet dirty sexy as 9 speed? So you can't renew your relationship with at least a clone of your old love?
 

adamhearn

Veteran
On the subject of 'shared frames', I have spotted a few cheapish Synapse + CAAD8 lower end models on ebay that I could easily upgrade component wise if they do indeed have the same frames as their more expensive older brothers. Does anyone know much on that subject?
When I bought my Synapse (alloy with [partial] 105 in 2011) the only differentiator was the paint job. When/if this changed i don't know.
 
The welds are definitely a bit more lumpy these days, particularly on the lower end Synapse/CAAD 8 models (I am constantly maxing the magnification on ebay + Gumtree), which confuses me some what as I thought a model range usually shared the same Ally frames, but just improved the components as the price increased. With the exception of the CAAD 10/12 that is.

I am aware of the Cannondale brand now following the cheaper China route, and I believe that the CAAD9 may have been the last model from the USA. Is it correct that GIANT are now quite literally the biggest bike frame producer?

On the subject of 'shared frames', I have spotted a few cheapish Synapse + CAAD8 lower end models on ebay that I could easily upgrade component wise if they do indeed have the same frames as their more expensive older brothers. Does anyone know much on that subject?

Fuji-ta are much larger than Giant when it comes to bike numbers. Not only do they manufacture 17 million complete bikes they also sell millions of frames throughout asia to smaller bike companies who can't make good quality certified aluminium or carbon frames themselves. To export to Europe, US and some other regions they need certified frames and its simply cheaper to buy in high quality frames from fuji-ta that are pre-certified so they can export to other countries. Giant are incredibly successful but they are at the mid-level and upwards right to the premium end. Fuji-ta can be supplying budget brands right up to high price carbon frames they produce bikes for every price level and every type of bike. I did some investigation out of curiosity sometime ago and the reach of fuji-ta is pretty amazing. It seems to be many factories of China while capable of welding steel frames often buy in their aluminium frames with fuji-ta being easily the largest supplier of such frames. Many bikes assembled across Europe and the US are based around a fuji-ta imported frame too. At one time it was mainly taiwanese frames but now there are cheaper good quality chinese mainland frames like fuji-ta frames. However I believe China is losing business to countries like Vietnam, Cambodia, Bangladesh and others who can produce bikes cheaper and don't currently have restrictions placed on them from the EU. So just as production has moved away from Taiwan to mainland China there is already migration away from China to those countries. Sometimes its the Chinese companies themselves that setup factories in these countries to reduce costs.
 
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JPBoothy

JPBoothy

Veteran
Location
Cheshire
When I bought my Synapse (alloy with [partial] 105 in 2011) the only differentiator was the paint job. When/if this changed i don't know.
I have seen a minter with Shimano Tiagra gears (scoffed at by some, but I have had 3 bikes with Tiagra and never slipped a gear once) but it has Tektro Rendor Discs which don't get a good review. A changeable part I suppose, but I believe that mechanical discs are generally a bit troublesome.
 
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JPBoothy

JPBoothy

Veteran
Location
Cheshire
Haven't looked in a while but fair to assume that they no longer sell anything as lowly sweet dirty sexy as 9 speed? So you can't renew your relationship with at least a clone of your old love?
There is now a 9 spd version of Shimano's long running Sora model which also has the STI double levers in place of the old 'fiddly' thumb activated button type thing. As Shimano tend to use a trickle down process when a new model is launched, the latest 9spd Sora is in effect the old 9spd Tiagra model. So there may be hope in finding something similar to that 'sweet dirty sexy 9spd set' if I can't resist the urge to re-create another mongrel one day :thumbsup:
 
Have a test ride on a Cannondale Carbon Synapse - it gives a magic carpet ride with 90psi 23mm tyres and goes like stink.

I know it's carbon, has internally routed cables (which don't rattle) and a BB30A BB (which doesn't creak) - but the smile it puts on your face each and every ride is something you don't get very often with a bike frame.
 

meadows

Active Member
Location
North Devon , UK
 oops sorry, I somehow managed to reply to Meadows 'rant' (only joking, they were all good points) without adding text first. I have deleted it now but apologies if you read it :blush:

I still rue the day when I sold my own 9spd road-bike as that would always keep me up with the racing snakes on their latest flavour of day machines. I totally agree with you that the person in the saddle makes the thing move not the fancy brand name and materials.

My 9spd was a flat-bar Aluminium Ribble framed mish mash of parts that was as quick as hell and never let me down. Hindsight eh :sad:

Its all good banter and obviously my original post was never saying a carrera can be compaired to an expensive bike but really my point being so many people make a massive financial investment on a top brand before they do much cycling. In long short just get out there and ride, bike doesnt matter as long as peeps enjoy it. After all life is an adventure and you only get one go at it.
 

meadows

Active Member
Location
North Devon , UK
I'm not a group cyclist myself but wondered how this would work. The person on the worst slowest bike has to work harder to keep up with the rest so you would think would lose weight faster and gain more fitness which may compensate for the heavier slower bike? The difference between an entry level road bike and higher end is about 4kg I guess (13kg to 9kg) however 4kg is easily lost from the human body. For the more casual cyclist who just enjoys a ride you just wonder if there is a rubber band effect where they merge together in equal ability overall. Also a stronger more comfortable bike may have benefits in how the rider feels when he cycles both physically and mentally. I'm more confident going fast downhill or on rough roads on a very strong bike with great brakes rather than a weak lightweight bike. Just curious.
For me I have gained confidence in my ability on the bike I am ridiing. I used to have a MTB which was a Trek top fuel 9 which had very good disc brakes and full sus, I would ride that in a different way to riding a cheaper bike. I learnt to trust my handling of the bike rather than expecting quality to to replace it. Hope that makes sense. For extreme example, I could give Chris Froome any bike and he would push it to a top level as he has confidnce in how to handle the bike. Does that make sense?
 

jowwy

Can't spell, Can't Punctuate....Sue Me
Another PITA might be the BB30 bottom bracket. With the rattling and creaking you might soon be reaching for a large bottle of paracetamol.
I have the bb30a on my synapse and not a single creak or rattle has been heard. But then I did for an aftermarket c-bear ceramic bottom bracket for sram red gxp crankset. It's worth it just to not hear the problems everyone else suffered. Bb30 should no longer be an issue for anyone with the amount of aftermarket BB available to solve all issues
 

jowwy

Can't spell, Can't Punctuate....Sue Me
Have a test ride on a Cannondale Carbon Synapse - it gives a magic carpet ride with 90psi 23mm tyres and goes like stink.

I know it's carbon, has internally routed cables (which don't rattle) and a BB30A BB (which doesn't creak) - but the smile it puts on your face each and every ride is something you don't get very often with a bike frame.
I have the frame your talking about, but in the hi-mod version (2.6k frame only) and it's ride is poor compared to my custom titanium. Soon the synapse frame will be up for sale complete with c-bear ceramic gxp bottom bracket ( totally creak free) after only doing 200ish miles
 

lazyfatgit

Guest
Location
Lawrence, NSW
Have a test ride on a Cannondale Carbon Synapse - it gives a magic carpet ride with 90psi 23mm tyres and goes like stink.

I know it's carbon, has internally routed cables (which don't rattle) and a BB30A BB (which doesn't creak) - but the smile it puts on your face each and every ride is something you don't get very often with a bike frame.

Whilst the internal gear cables on my HiMod Synapse don't rattle, the rear hydraulic line does. Intermittent and mostly down to the road surface. The rest doesn't creak - but its taken about 3 attempts, carbon assembly paste and the max recomended 6NM to stop the incredibly stupid seat post clamp to stop creaking and slipping.
 
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