Presumed liability

[chriswoody]

Can I chime in here as well to echo @Andy in Germany experiences with presumed liability in Germany. The German car industry is huge here and people do like to drive, however, in towns and cities it's really noticeable the level car drivers go to to avoid cyclists.

As has also been pointed out, it goes the other way too. As a cyclist I must avoid pedestrians where at all possible, I really don't see the problem with that. If their being moronic and wandering around glued to their phones then I'll slow right down. I would expect a car to take due care in areas where cyclists are present, so why shouldn't pedestrians expect me to take due care and diligence when I'm riding?

 

[snorri]

Would the same people who are so concerned about 'protecting the vulnerable' also support 'presumed guilt' in rape cases?

Let's stay on topic, we were talking about presumed liability as it relates to people cycling.

 

[Profpointy]

Would the same people who are so concerned about 'protecting the vulnerable' also support 'presumed guilt' in rape cases?

That isn't remotely the same thing, as I'm sure you well know. Rape is a criminal offense involving deliberate evil intent.

A road accident, is just that, an accident, so it is perfectly reasonable for the person operating dangerous machinery to take financial responsibility for the harm to others, more or less regardless of who is to blame, unless the cyclist or pedestrian has done some wilfully outrageous. I can't think of any other sphere of activity where the owners and operators of dangerous equipment or activities aren't held responsible financial where harm befalls others, even if the "victim" has themselves made a mistake

 

[Once a Wheeler]

I have signed it. A good deal for cyclists but also a great deal for pedestrians who are now not just endangered by bullies on bikes (obviously not CC members) but even more endangered by electric-scooter scamps. Due respect to pedal and pedestrian, please.

 

[PK99]

Cautionary tales..

Insurance Scam Backfires on Scammer || ViralHog - YouTube

Moment cyclist hits stationary taxi in "attempt to set up accident" - YouTube

 

[Chris S]

Cautionary tales..

Insurance Scam Backfires on Scammer || ViralHog - YouTube

Moment cyclist hits stationary taxi in "attempt to set up accident" - YouTube

Just proves my point.

 

[raleighnut]

Around here muggers and drug dealers use bikes. I wouldn't take them long to realize that they could make much more money by bouncing onto car bonnets and then scamming their insurers.

Yeah like they really want to come to the attention of the Cops

 

[Chris S]

What is wrong with you?
Most of the civilised countries of the world already have presumed liability. It is a good thing (tm).

Civilized? It was first adopted by countries that helped send millions of people to death camps in Eastern Europe. They're trying to make amends for it now by adopting ridiculous liberal policies.

 

[matticus]

Civilized? It was first adopted by countries that helped send millions of people to death camps in Eastern Europe. They're trying to make amends for it now by adopting ridiculous liberal policies.

I wish that had been your 1st post on this topic: would have saved me reading the rest.👍

 

[Profpointy]

Civilized? It was first adopted by countries that helped send millions of people to death camps in Eastern Europe. They're trying to make amends for it now by adopting ridiculous liberal policies.

Whilst it looks like a wind up, I do fear you mean it Improving safety and justice for cyclists , pedestrians, small children is just like Hitler
'kinell that's a bit of stretch to bring in Godwin on such a contrived basis.

To address the point head on, assuming Hitler "was kind to children and animals" as the cliche would have it, we should be presumably be cruel to children and animals, in order to, what, defy Hitler

 

[Arrowfoot]

Maybe we should take this a couple of levels down.

The intention is to give the smaller guy a fighting chance. It is also signalling to the bigger guys to be extra cautious when seeing the smaller guy in front as the latter has little or no chance coming out of any accident better.

Yes, there will be scammers including cyclists throwing themselves deliberately. But will it overwhelm the overall goodness it is expected to deliver.

Only Malta, Cyrus, Romania and Ireland other than UK in Europe have not adopted it. I would not consider some or most of them leading lights in any field. At least 2 to 3 of them I would not rely to set any standards in health, safety, industry, innovation, social justice, or anything related to community. So why are we with the outliers?

Do we know something that European powerhouses from Scandinavia to the Iberian Peninsular to the far reaches of the Rhine don't know? At every level from industry, community and at a humanitarian level, they are stand head over heels over 3 of the countries that we are still in bed with.

 

[mjr]

To address the point head on, assuming Hitler "was kind to children and animals" as the cliche would have it, we should be presumably be cruel to children and animals, in order to, what, defy Hitler

The cliche is not true, though: Hitler poisoned his pet dog before killing himself, fearing the mutt (a German shepherd - what else would it be?) would become a famous celebrity after his death; and there are shaky allegations about an unhealthy interest in some of his young relatives, particularly 17-year-old Geli Raubal, 19 years his junior. His wife was also 17 when they met.

So to defy Hitler, we should adopt kind, protective policies towards children and animals, amongst other things!

However, I am not aware of any Nazi policy on presumed liability on road transport. They were definitely against the presumed liability of Germany for World War I and the reparations that followed, so maybe Nazis would be against presumed liability in general.

 

[matticus]

However, I am not aware of any Nazi policy on presumed liability on road transport. They were definitely against the presumed liability of Germany for World War I and the reparations that followed, so maybe Nazis would be against presumed liability in general.

QED !!!

 

[HobbesOnTour]

Wow! Some hyperbole here!

I arrived in NL as a non-cyclist and was flummoxed by the presumed liability rule. But it makes sense!

However, it is one only part of a bigger picture.
Proper cycling infrastructure, for a start. The fact that most people cycle, or at least cycled helps a lot.
Cycling isn't "an activity" - it's a part of everyday life and is treated as such.
There are checkpoints set up to check for lights. Recently, laws were introduced to punish those cycling and using a phone. I believe (not sure, never tested it!) that serious misbehaviour on the bike can affect my driving license.
Then again, rolling out of work early one morning after a snowfall I noticed with a huge amount of appreciation that a snow plough was clearing the cycle path before the road!

Everywhere has decent facilities for bike parking.

There is a different attitude.

Kids cycle to and from school. Parents bring their smaller kids to school - on the bike! I used to regularly pass a woman with a cargo bike and three small kids in it.
I've seen a teacher front and rear enclosing up to 30 +/-10 years olds on a school excursion.
(Of course, the kids do cycle training as a part of their schooling).
These things happen because cycling is perceived as "safe".
Why is that?