Paul Kimmage suspicious of Sky

[tug benson]

lets hope sky take Kimmage to the courts....surely Kimmage will have proof of these claims?

 

[ufkacbln]

This is a longstanding spat between Kimmage and Sky

THis article in July this year sums it up

Wiggins has been deemed as not being sufficiently open and frank.

“When asked about doping, the answers from Wiggins now sound the same as with Armstrong and Floyd.”

“I don’t recognise the Wiggins now, compared to the guy I interviewed in 2007 to when he was sent out of the Tour,” he said. “I can’t compare these two guys as their responses are completely the opposite. I don’t understand what has happened. I don’t know how you can lead the Tour de France and not speak out about doping, yet speak out in the past so openly. There’s also a completely about-turn from Wiggins on his response to Armstrong, when compared to his previous stance on anti-doping.

​

​

 

[BJH]

I wouldn't bet my house on any pro being clean but Wiggins would be someone that would be high up on the list of people I would consider to be absolutely clean.

PK is interesting and I have a lot of time for him, but he's losing me on this one.

He mentions the removal of a a team doctor and MR amongst the riders as being doubtful. Not really they publicised the fact that the team were being asked to committ to the fact hey had never been involved with drugs and those that had were allowed to leave so no big surprise.

Then he compares the way the team rode with the way that Postal rode. Sky never dominated the way postal did, if we had seen Cav at he front flying up the mountains he would have had a point.

I saw a very rich team that bought the best talent they could and used it to protect its leader.

One similarity but not enough to make this accusation.

It does bring up one point for me around testing protocols. I think Sky's position of we don't need to test because we will ensure that the environment will always be there that riders don't need to is slightly naive. This might work internally and may be great for the riders and staff to be trusted. But, sceptics the press and even PK are looking to be absolutely convinced.

Not having open results for testing, blood values etc is a mistake. Not being open enough is a mistake, even the now removed decision of not having the riders visible in warm up and warm down was a mistake.

They need to show absolute visibility - but that does not give PK the right to demand that he personally must be embedded with the team during a Tour before he will believe. What does he want to do, sleep in the same room? No other sport would give the access he appears to want either. It does smack of him being ale to use this crusade as a means of getting him right back in to the heart of the sport.

I judge people on exactly what they say and how they say it, looking forward to Wiggo giving him a swift response as I do wonder whether PK will ever accept any winner as believable clean.

 

[ufkacbln]

Part of the problem now is that the test results, blood values etc are no longer "proof" that doping does not happen. There are many drugs out there that are still undetectable and could be in use without ever being discovered.

One German expert (George Thevis) was interviewed by Reuters in 2012 and reckoned that there are 100 EPO alternatives

"They act like EPO but they are structurally different and that means the current EPO tests will not pick them up," he said.

"Fortunately we know about that problem and we have to develop new tests to help to find these drugs that, according to anecdotal evidence and rumours, are already used in elite sports although they are not officially launched yet.

It is a war where for 6 months of the year the drug testers will find a test to beat the PED designers, then inthe next six months the PED designers will modify and beat the testers

Is the use of observers the way forward if you can find a truly independent, incorruptible, and totally scrupulous observer

 

[ufkacbln]

Apart from the times for climbs being slower than for many years, output lower etc, Wiggins didn't simply ride away from his doped up rivals which Armstrong did. One of the major suspicious indicators of LA's drug abuse was the fact that he beat other proven dopers like Pantani, Basso with such apparent ease. Wiggins visibly struggled up some of the mountains and won mainly due to limiting losses and TTing so well.
None of this is proof that BW isn't on the dope but coupled with his stance against doping it convices me as far as is possible. Kimmage is still smarting that he Wiggins didn't want him along for the ride on the Sky bus and the fact that he wasn't keen on discussing dopage in his yellow jersey press conferences.
Much as I admired Kimmage for keeping on keeping on at the cancer in the sport, I think he should do more than just throw accusations around. If he feels there is some evidence out there to be exposed re Sky then he should dig it out much as Walsh did with LA.

Interesting change, last time this was raised your opinion was that it was all irrelevant, old hat and as was now well on the grounds that Wiggins was now speaking out against Armstrong, and that to criticise either Sky and Wiggins was simply a pro-Armstrong fantasy!

The criticism of Sky by Kimmage is as relevant now as it was when raised earlier.

 

[jdtate101]

The thing that gets me is that he says the SKY performance was too like postal, but that's not what I saw looking at the footage. Yes the team dominated, but if you look closely none of the other teams seem to be riding as a unit. Whenever sky are at the front, cadel and nibali are there with them, but without support (or at the very least just one helper each), whereas sky seem to have been told to ride together all the time. They do say you can't win the tour alone, but only with a strong team, so it begs the question, why didn't the others ride together also? The only other teams that really looked a unit were Saxo (sometimes) and Radioshack, but sky always looked a unit. One the climbs, each member did his work before peeling off when spent. I didn't see any real strongman acts and none of the sky riders came in far ahead of the competition (20, 30secs at most) or crossed the line together. The time advantages where mostly gained in the TT, which is Brads area of strength and which he was FAR better than his rivals. Kimmage's argument just doesn't stand up this time.

Kimmage has been right on Armstrong, and that was a good thing, but being right once does not make you right all the time. I think all this is a bit of bitterness on his part that they denied him access to the level he wanted, so he's gone on the attack to try and force them to give access next time.

 

[rich p]

Interesting change, last time this was raised your opinion was that it was all irrelevant, old hat and as was now well on the grounds that Wiggins was now speaking out against Armstrong, and that to criticise either Sky and Wiggins was simply a pro-Armstrong fantasy!

The criticism of Sky by Kimmage is as relevant now as it was when raised earlier.

Sorry, old bean, I have no idea what you're waffling on about, but your grammar and syntax are so appalling it makes comprehension difficult.
Please accept my apologies in advance if English isn't your first language.

 

[Hotblack Desiato]

Part of the problem now is that the test results, blood values etc are no longer "proof" that doping does not happen. There are many drugs out there that are still undetectable and could be in use without ever being discovered.

One German expert (George Thevis) was interviewed by Reuters in 2012 and reckoned that there are 100 EPO alternatives
..

His name is Mario Thevis, not George Thevis.

He also said:

Fortunately we know about [the] problem and we have to develop new tests to help to find these drugs that, according to anecdotal evidence and rumours, are already used in elite sports, although they are not officially launched yet.”

He said that the substances were not widely available, and that those seeking to obtain the substances would need ‘good connections'.

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11385/Anti-doping-scientist-warns-of-undetectable-EPO-variants.aspx#ixzz2GuRHAeTz

..
..Is the use of observers the way forward if you can find a truly independent, incorruptible, and totally scrupulous observer

I believe that, surprising though it may seem, such people do exist and that almost by definition they are not motivated by greed!

 

[Radchenister]

I am new to the Pharmstrong / Sky doping accusation debate on here but have watched it unfold.

I've been soaking up the comments from various sources, including Cycling News. Whilst doing so, something sprang to mind; the media didn't dwell too long on the carpet tack incident in the Pyrenees which is probably rightly so, as it might have sparked copy cat actions. People will of course remember when Wiggins enabled the lead group to slow down to allow Evans back into the race; not unusual in history but quite important strategically this time in my view.

When mentioning parallels with the US Postal situation why isn't this brought up? It appeared to be a crucial point of the story of this year's TDF to me ... either it was a very cunning counter bluff to cover their doping master-plan, undertaken by people who were safe in the knowledge that they had a turbo under the bonnet, or perhaps someone will argue it was the actions of a guilty man relenting for a moment ... but I very much doubt that's the case ... more realistically, for me it demonstrated an attitude which is the polar opposite to the win at all costs actions of a certain Mr L.E.Gunderson.

In my mind it's impossible to know for certain if any athlete is clean but then what in life is 100% proven, the precautionary measures are far greater than in the bad old days? I respect Paul Kimmage for his stance and general ambition to clean things up but the current situation appears to be based on speculation through suggested 'similarities', which may be being taken too far; it's not too difficult to generate these sort of accusations if you're half decent with words but the stat's don't really suggest anything untoward, the long peak might be questioned a little but it is not inconceivable that someone could manage this.

Going back to the tack incident and to generalise the situation with TDF win, to me 2012 was unusual as there were no real serious threats to Wiggins, which combined with Sky working as a solid unit (most of the time) and controlling the game (but in a sportsmanlike way), meant the hearts and minds of the peleton had been won over. I believe this helped put Wiggins on the podium and thought this was an inspiring situation in light of the doping storm clouds in the press. I would have to put myself on the edge of the 'don't want to believe' camp but I'm not daft and am ready to be proven wrong, however, in my mind Paul Kimmage either needs to produce some solid evidence or he's in danger of inverting the boy who cried wolf story.

 

[Hotblack Desiato]

This is a longstanding spat between Kimmage and Sky

THis article in July this year sums it up

Wiggins has been deemed as not being sufficiently open and frank.

From that article, the following is very disappointing:

One major concern for Kimmage is the team’s hiring of Geert Leinders towards the end of 2010. Previously with the Rabobank team, he came under a shadow in May when former Rabobank team manager Theo de Rooy admitted that doping was tolerated on the team until 2007, saying that it was a ‘deliberate decision by the medical staff.’ Leinders was the chief doctor at the time and acknowledged that when he was with the team, EPO was being used.

Kimmage is troubled by his appointment. “When the team started, it said it would use doctors from outside cycling. I don’t see what possible reason there can be for hiring this guy.

“Prior to that, Sky had different doctors there. There was no explanation about the change. If all along they said, ‘look, this is where we are at, this is what we are doing, this is why we are doing this,’ then fine. At least get it out there, explain it to us and we’ll make up our own mind then. But for all this covert stuff to be going on, it’s not good enough. It is just an extension of what we have had in the past.”

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12357/Kimmage-disappointed-in-Wiggins-and-Team-Sky-over-transparency.aspx#ixzz2Gv8tGrDj

It seems a fair point unfortunately.

 

[rich p]

From that article, the following is very disappointing:




Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12357/Kimmage-disappointed-in-Wiggins-and-Team-Sky-over-transparency.aspx#ixzz2Gv8tGrDj

It seems a fair point unfortunately.

This is what Brailsford said about it - you pays your money and takes your choice. I agree that at the very least it was a PR bollock drop

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/we-did-the-right-thing-with-leinders-says-brailsfordhttp://www.cyclingnews.com/news/we-did-the-right-thing-with-leinders-says-brailsford

 

[Hont]

Both the best and worst of Kimmage highlighted in a single article. The best: unrelenting dog with a bone attitude over the employment of Leinders with the result that Sky re-calibrate it's employment policy. The worst: the lack of professional detachment which means he comes across as a bitter mud-slinger with no facts to back up the accusations. Does he really think Wiggins doped or is he still miffed about his Twitter comment and the lack of access to Sky?

Kimmage is always worth listening to, but sometimes also worth discounting. Not having a bad day in the tour does not mean you dope, just like having a bad day doesn't mean you're clean.

 

[byegad]

I hope Kimmage is wrong, I'd thoroughly enjoyed Lance's exploits, until disillusionment set in, and the truth was revealed.

 

[johnr]

This is what Brailsford said about it - you pays your money and takes your choice. I agree that at the very least it was a PR bollock drop

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/we-did-the-right-thing-with-leinders-says-brailsfordhttp://www.cyclingnews.com/news/we-did-the-right-thing-with-leinders-says-brailsford

I couldn't access the article, but it does seem uncharacteristic of Sky to have let a needle-merchant into the camp. All the more reason to get rid of everyone (Riis) with high-profile involvement in doping. Unless those who facilitate drug cheating fear that their careers may also be curtailed, they aint going to stop. This is the Pharmstrong/current UCI leadership legacy to the sport.

 

[rich p]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/we-did-the-right-thing-with-leinders-says-brailsford
Does that work john?