Olympics versus Worlds

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Dave5N

Über Member
Less money in Britain for the whole set up than in the professional (ex?) ProTour teams.

Hence various remarks from Millar onwards about the need for a team structure as well as a national one.

Interestingly, that's IMO what Brailsford's SKy project will address. You don't get sucess by turning up as the boys from the hicks.
 

Dave5N

Über Member
Athletics weren't just wasteful. They had no plan, and no goals and no ruthlessness.

The BCF are successful because they share a definition of success and are prepared to work in increments. A lesson to most organisations, sporting or otherwise.
 

resal1

New Member
That was an excellent starter Skip. Some of the answers give evidence to why it why it is so relevant a discussion point at this moment in time.

Within sport there is the thrill of the unknown, the final twist, the untold tale. We can select our favourites, those we support and follow their trials and tribulations. Then even, if we have no favoured participants we can simply marvel at the athletic performance and contest. Off the field, behind the scenes, there is all the manoeuvring. I will not use the word “political” because much of it is not. It is just that there are gains and losses to be made in all manner of ways – team selection etc.

Within cycling in the UK we have a conundrum. Two sports which share a common device for motion but have not a great deal else in common. World domination in one of the sports. The other ?

The question requires 3 different answers.

If you are a track cyclist, male or female, the Olympics is it. The3 blondes in a boat have come under attack from some quarters. Olympic Yngling is for females only and requires 3 in a boat. Just how many nations actually put a team together for years and pay them to do this sport? The facts make uncomfortable reading for track cycling. Numbers are: Olympic teams, World championship teams:
Men’s team sprint 13, 15, Men’s team pursuit 10, 12, Yngling 15, 28. Fact, the yngling boat has been dropped from the next Olympics and they are trying to get the girls into a more competitive boat.

A case is being made to get Victoria 3 gold medals at 2012 by introducing more events. As she said – after all there will not need to be any more competitors, they are all there already. Yes, all 11 of the opponents she faced in the individual sprint will already be there. 1.2 seconds behind in 11 for an Olympic finalist is a long way back.

In 2012 or 2008 there is no justification for not having equivalent events male and female. But the reality is that with squash, karate roller sports and golf making a play for any Olympic place, if track cycling were a “new” event, it would probably not get a look in, participation levels are way too low. A point of conjecture would be, given the demise of so many cycling tracks in this country and elsewhere in the World, were track cycling not in the Olympics, would it have any future whatsoever ? Have a look at the times for the events. Hoy may have 3 gold medals. He is a smashing lad and the best there is at what he does. I don’t think I have heard anyone who understands cycling arguing that he is Britain’s greatest cyclist. No-one argues that case for Reg Harris. Reg was a great sprinter.

If you are a female road cyclist, the answer is a qualified yes. The original introduction excellently drew out the point that with only 3 riders per team (what century is cycling organisation in?) many excellent riders from the major cycling nations do not get to participate and team tactic nuances are reduced in scope. The point that was not made is that the women’s major tours do not feature the publicity that the men’s Tour does. I am sure Dave5N is no rabid male chauvinist but that he can say “I have every confidence that Britain will be a very important Road cycling..in the next 10 years” would be a shorthand for the well discussed tale “we are good on the track but not the road yet”. Or even the current poll on the Cycling Weekly web site “do you think GB will have a Tour de France winner in the next 5 years”. (they offered no answer ”we already have one). It cannot get any better than winning the Giro, World Cup, being number 1 rider in the World, Olympic and World Champion and Tour winner, even in the emaciated state that the Tour was left after a long running and bitter legal battle with the men’s tour over use of the name. In women’s cycling we cannot get any better. But if that success has passed by Dave5N and Cycling Weekly, it reflects that for the Women, the Olympics must have huge kudos that does not compare with the men’s scene. It is the one occasion every 4 years their peloton has the full gaze of the World. As to participation and performance levels. Over 400 riders have World ranking status. Not bad when the only UCI ranked event here in the UK is the National champs. Indeed, in women’s sports, probably only Women’s Tennis has a higher number on their World tour. World Cups often attract fields of over 160. I doubt a single women’s track and field discipline has this level of world Competitiveness. There are more athletes but they are spread over many disciplines.

If you are a male road cyclist then the answer is “no”. The Tour is the pinnacle the sport. But male road cycling is in a mess. We don’t know what we are watching. Look at the top 10 from a Tour of 10 years ago and how far down do we have to go before the real winner appears ? It is entertainment and the drug stories are all part of it.. Cav has done brilliantly, as did Cooke at his age. Cav has shown if we get the right attitude amongst the men, then we can win on the road and not climb off half way through the race like at the Worlds or Olympics.

So having argued the case where does that leave us? Road Cycling is the King of Sports. We fans can argue the case, from a point of some strength with any other sport. The 1 day classics, the tours, the World Championships - the heroic fabric of our sport. Participation and competition levels for both male and females prove that there are no easy wins in the major events. Competition is truly World Class and not due to privileged access to specialist facilities. It has a one day event and the Olympic road race can be the king of those classics.


The popular press and even some authors in the specialist UK press see a rider on two wheels and cannot disassociate track from road. One is World Class, factually, the other is shamed by participation levels in Yngling. 10 medals up for grabs ? 7 male 3 female. Perhaps just 6, 3 male, 3 female, sprint, pursuit and points. Complaints - it still looks a good bet for your lottery funding compared to the road.


The administration of the sport and press reporting in cycling, show systemic chauvinism that other sports ditched over 50 years ago.

Chris Hoy may well become the only cyclist since Tom Simpson to become BBC Sports personality of the year. Good luck to him. He has worked hard and everything he does is to a superb standard. What is disturbing, is to reflect what might be our view if Cooke were male.
 

Dave5N

Über Member
An interesting (lengthy;)) and well argued-post.

You are right of course. I am not rabid.

Your point about the relative profiles of male and female cycling is well made and timely. However, we are where we are, and can only work to get to where we want to be.

Nicole and Vicky, and the fantastically talented female cyclists coming through behind them have helped raise the status of the women's sport. When we are showing consistent year-in, year-out success (and we will, with the likes of Poole, Armitstead, Rowsell, Colclough et al, and after them another wave: there are three from my own club alone - Varnish, Scott, and Booth; and then a whole host of talented Youth girls coming through); then we will start to see the nation beginning to celebrate their achievements on a par with men's racing.

However, this isn't just a problem for cycling. Cycling's attitudes reflect those of sport in general; sport's those of our wider societies.

How many people could name the past five winners of the women's FA Cup, or the top five female motor racing drivers? Or cricketers? etc etc and so it goes.
 

Keith Oates

Janner
Location
Penarth, Wales
A good and comprehensive entry for your very first post.
I also agree with a lot of what you say and do agree that The track and road are only joined by the fact they are on bikes. It has been said here before and no doubt in many other places, that if Nicole was a man and had the same amount of domination and success, her name would be in the limelight much more than it is at the present time. However I feel that for the genuine cycling fan the Worlds hold more interest than the Olympics and for the Road Racing fans the TdF is the top event over both and is run each and every year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Dave5N

Über Member
Keith Oates said:
A good and comprehensive entry for your very first post.
I also agree with a lot of what you say and do agree that The track and road are only joined by the fact they are on bikes. It has been said here before and no doubt in many other places, that if Nicole was a man and had the same amount of domination and success, her name would be in the limelight much more than it is at the present time. However I feel that for the genuine cycling fan the Worlds hold more interest than the Olympics and for the Road Racing fans the TdF is the top event over both and is run each and every year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And the riders.

Bradley McGee chose to retire on the track, but his road achievements will be remembered by many. Our track riders are using their skills, training and discipline to transfer to road success. Cav's four TdF stage wins this year didn't come from no where.
 

Keith Oates

Janner
Location
Penarth, Wales
I agree Dave5N, that some riders start in one discipline and then move to the other or alternate between the two and they have done well in both. A good rider will be good at both but will not be a top class winner at both in the same season. Cav did start on the track and move to road and no doubt some of what he learned on the track was taken with him to the road with good affect. However I would suggest that the training and preparations required for each of the disciplines are very different and in many areas do not help the riders at the top of their chosen course.
 

Dave5N

Über Member
Keith Oates said:
I agree Dave5N, that some riders start in one discipline and then move to the other or alternate between the two and they have done well in both. A good rider will be good at both but will not be a top class winner at both in the same season. Cav did start on the track and move to road and no doubt some of what he learned on the track was taken with him to the road with good affect. However I would suggest that the training and preparations required for each of the disciplines are very different and in many areas do not help the riders at the top of their chosen course.


I understand you Keith, but I think you are being a bit traditional. Look at Cav's Madison in the Worlds, his Giro stages, his TdF wins, his total palmares this season. His work effort at Beijing, whilst ultimately unsuccesful, was also formidably impressive.

Look how many riders cross over from the six days to the road each year. Professional, yes.

BTW there are more than two disciplines. Ask Shanaze. ;)

Or Jamie.
 

Keith Oates

Janner
Location
Penarth, Wales
<BTW there are more than two disciplines. Ask Shanaze.>

That is very true and for those participating or following them they are very important. However BMX, Cyclo cross, down hill, MTB racing and all the others I don't remember right now are forms of cycling which must be fun to actually do but 'for me' are not really a big interest.

Your comment about me being 'traditional' is very true and is another polite way of saying 'óld fashioned'.;)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
OP
OP
Skip Madness

Skip Madness

New Member
Welcome to the boards, resal1. There are some interesting points in your post which I think we can try to expand upon. Apologies for the quote-chopping:
resal1 said:
If you are a track cyclist, male or female, the Olympics is it... The facts make uncomfortable reading for track cycling. Numbers are: Olympic teams, World championship teams:
Men’s team sprint 13, 15, Men’s team pursuit 10, 12, Yngling 15, 28... A case is being made to get Victoria 3 gold medals at 2012 by introducing more events. As she said – after all there will not need to be any more competitors, they are all there already. Yes, all 11 of the opponents she faced in the individual sprint will already be there. 1.2 seconds behind in 11 for an Olympic finalist is a long way back... In 2012 or 2008 there is no justification for not having equivalent events male and female. But the reality is that... if track cycling were a “new” event, it would probably not get a look in, participation levels are way too low. A point of conjecture would be, given the demise of so many cycling tracks in this country and elsewhere in the World, were track cycling not in the Olympics, would it have any future whatsoever ?
First of all, I am not particularly opposed to the idea of Olympic track cycling like I am with the road, but to have any respect on a sporting level it needs medal parity. I can accept the concept that the Olympics continues to fuel the sport, but as long as we only have a bastardised version of track cycling then I wonder if rather than maintaining the track the Olympics is not in fact just eating it up.

I do not have statistics on the subject, but I am not convinced that participation levels are all that low around the world on the track. I know the six-day events in Germany have been having trouble, but I think that is more of a German problem (as the same is applying to their road events and teams, too) than a track problem. I think the greater issue, which was touched upon earlier in the topic, is the lack of competitiveness at the top level. Plenty of people love to get on the boards, but the gap between the best and the rest is a gulf. I forget who it was recently who was saying that if you take all of the best riders in most track disciplines, there are only two or three who have a realistic chance of winning. Unlike the road - where if you want to participate you just get a bike and form a club (all you need is some road) - the track requires you to have access to a velodrome and book enough sessions to be able to train at the most basic end and if you want to compete with the British set-up, the costs spiral.

I think there definitely would be a future for track cycling sans Olympics because the support is fairly die-hard. If anything the loss of the big money it generates for the British and (formerly) Australian systems would level out the playing field to an extent. But as I said before I don't see the track as totally incompatible with the Olympics. The UCI should be using it, though, to grow the sport. The World Cup should be expanded and marketed more aggressively.

If you are a female road cyclist, the answer is a qualified yes... The point that was not made is that the women’s major tours do not feature the publicity that the men’s Tour does... But if that success has passed by Dave5N and Cycling Weekly, it reflects that for the Women, the Olympics must have huge kudos that does not compare with the men’s scene. It is the one occasion every 4 years their peloton has the full gaze of the World.
An issue for me is that I don't think the Olympic road race or time-trial do have the full gaze of the world. OK, in a literal sense, yes - they get more viewers than any other women's race; but in the context of the Olympics, the women's races don't hang in the public conscience like they do in other sports - they are mere anecdotes. At the Worlds, the women get the full attention of the people who matter most - the cycling fans; and they aren't just one of several sub-headlines, they get two days of the limelight to themselves.

I don't believe that one fairly pointless quadrennial one-day classic will solve the problems that women's racing has. Hell, it has been going since 1984, but compare the women's road scene of 2008 with that of 1998 - there have been several steps forwards but a fair few backwards, too. The only way to bring it up to date is for the cycling fans to demand it and the broadcast and news media to give it a chance. The latter is not as big a risk as it sounds; the women's versions of the Tour of Flanders and Flèche Wallonne run just a couple of hours before the men's. We should be seeing both events live on Eurosport - they are able to do it with World Cup cross-country skiing. The Grande Boucle got a quarter or half an hour (I forget) of highlights every night in France - how hard could it be to fit that in to the schedule? Or to do the same with the women's Giro (particularly as it coincides with the men's Tour de France - what better time for it)?
 

resal1

New Member
I can add little about track participation around the rest of the World. In the days pre the track lottery funding, the velodrome at Manchester was getting into the papers for all the wrong reasons. Remember the articles about it making more money from hiring out the hall to cat shows than holding a cycling meet. Anecdotally I know of a friend who used to cycle at the Olympic velodrome in Montreal. The finances of running the place did not make sense and they closed it down. No velodrome. Around the rest of the World? It is hard for any of us to get a perspective. The BBC have given track cycling in this country a massive boost.

The women's road scene needs some effective PR. The year the Amstel Gold organisers stopped their women's race, they had a huge press release stating that they had achieved equity by giving provision to handicapped viewers, with priviliged access at the start and finish areas. Giving to one minority whilst taking away from half the population! The female mayor of one of the towns was quoted as saying these changes were all great and what a step forward it all was. Probably she thought it was, nobody told her they were axing the women's race. "Sorry darling you can't be mayor, we have decided women don't count, but if you are in a wheel chair you can watch the new mayor's procession, we will wheel you to the front and you can wave at him as he goes by. You're never going to be mayor." Can you just imagine the outcry !!

Why did they cut the race? Probably it was a lot of effort to organise it and they received little in the way of coverage for sponsors for doing so. Probably the same with the Womens' Milan san Remo. That gets straight to your point, what are the broadcasters doing ? As you so rightly point out, they have the cameras there why don't they get themselves organised and get the race feed out live?

A lot of early women's races were poor. "don't bother women's racing is rubbish" was probably said many times behind the scenes. We will all have our opinion of the women's Olympics and World Champs. I have not seen it because several years ago I gave up with International Cycle Sport but apparently they have some sort of run down of their opinion of the races of this year. (I think that was by the same authors who made Chris Boardman the British rider of the last century in Dec 2000. Chris was good at pursuiting and TT's but I don't think he would put himself forward for such status.)

I saw the tour of Flanders in 2006 when Cooke won. It was a fantastic race, exiting to the last 500m just like the Worlds this year and Cooke probably rode a better race physically as well as tactically. Eurosport need to get the transmission out there. A half hour, "highlights" (!) programme weeks later is what they did. I am sure it generated the response - the viewing figures were poor. The viewing figures will be poor until the media treat the female riders with the level of respect that the rest of society places on its treatment of the two sexes in everyday life. Yes, your point is exactly right, for Eurosport the risk is small and they could probably do a very good job without a great deal more effort. They need to be asked to schedule it.
 
OP
OP
Skip Madness

Skip Madness

New Member
resal1 said:
In the days pre the track lottery funding, the velodrome at Manchester was getting into the papers for all the wrong reasons. Remember the articles about it making more money from hiring out the hall to cat shows than holding a cycling meet. Anecdotally I know of a friend who used to cycle at the Olympic velodrome in Montreal. The finances of running the place did not make sense and they closed it down. No velodrome. Around the rest of the World? It is hard for any of us to get a perspective. The BBC have given track cycling in this country a massive boost.
All good points.
A lot of early women's races were poor. "don't bother women's racing is rubbish" was probably said many times behind the scenes. We will all have our opinion of the women's Olympics and World Champs.
Ironically enough, whenever I have managed to see women's racing televised it is often more exciting than men's racing as the races tend to be shorter in both distance and time, and the riding more aggressive accordingly. The Vuelta has dabbled in shortish stages before with similar results, although they seem to be going back to the standard Grand Tour distances these past couple of years, but I think it would be great if they made it so that the average road stage was 120 km. Forget trying to compete with the Tour and the Giro at everything, make the race exciting your own way. It would mean fewer and shorter drags through the desert, too.
I saw the tour of Flanders in 2006 when Cooke won. It was a fantastic race, exiting to the last 500m just like the Worlds this year and Cooke probably rode a better race physically as well as tactically. Eurosport need to get the transmission out there. A half hour, "highlights" (!) programme weeks later is what they did.
Yes, these little packages are extraordinarily frustrating - often on in the middle of the day, totally unadvertised. And usually poorly edited and commentated.

I don't want to stray off on too much of a tangent, but following women's results and news can be very trying. Even websites like Cycling News, whose coverage in general is fairly comprehensive, are slow updating results - sometimes not bothering to find them out at all - and are on occasion inaccurate. And when women's races like the Worlds or Olympics are on the box, the commentators often do not know a lot about some quite high-profile riders. Even when major women's stage races are on in France, websites of papers such as L'Equipe offer little in the way of coverage. I think maybe we as fans should try to make the demand for better coverage - on the television, mainly - known.
 
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