Non-cyclists views on cycle paths/lanes

[wiggydiggy]

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Humboldtstraße, Bremen, Germany&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=53.075207,8.822653&spn=0.010223,0.024505&sll=53.120031,8.736286&sspn=0.326782,0.784149&oq=humboldt&t=h&hnear=Humboldtstraße, 28203 Bremen, Germany&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.075207,8.822653&panoid=l2zI1OwSuRwbAZRQ4S1uEw&cbp=12,89.53,,0,4.73

The road will be shared. Also in a 30kph zone.

The concept of a "cycle street" is an interesting one, but the rules vary from country to country. Apparently Belgium have just changed theirs, making it illegal for motorised traffic to overtake cyclists. Here, there is no such law at present. But safety obviously also depends on how much traffic there is. At present this street has around 8,000 cyclists and 8,000 motorists per day.

Cheers.

I just googled it and I like it, the cocept I mean. I found this as a definition:

"Cycle streets
A cycle street is a road so designed that cyclists dominate visually and motorized traffic is tolerated as a guest. The look like street-wide cycle track on which motorized traffic is allowed. Legally, a cycle street is a mixed traffic road. A cycle street can be considered on main cycling routes on local estate access roads."

Its from this site: http://www.presto-cycling.eu/en/about-presto

I'm going to have to spend some time on that site later, then perhaps ask why in this country we are not adopting similar policies rather than sticking with the concept of segregation or nothing. At a glance it certainly has good ideas?

I think if this thread is achieving anything its showing we cannot simply divide our views into segregation or none, its not as simple as that.

EDIT

Also, its worth reading the definitions of cycle lanes, cycle paths and cycle streets as well as the full page I link to, probably the most refreshing definitions of cycling and infrastructure Ive read.

 

[atomheartfather]

Cheers.

I just googled it and I like it, the cocept I mean. I found this as a definition:

"Cycle streets
A cycle street is a road so designed that cyclists dominate visually and motorized traffic is tolerated as a guest. The look like street-wide cycle track on which motorized traffic is allowed. Legally, a cycle street is a mixed traffic road. A cycle street can be considered on main cycling routes on local estate access roads."

Its from this site: http://www.presto-cycling.eu/en/about-presto

I'm going to have to spend some time on that site later, then perhaps ask why in this country we are not adopting similar policies rather than sticking with the concept of segregation or nothing. At a glance it certainly has good ideas?

I think if this thread is achieving anything its showing we cannot simply divide our views into segregation or none, its not as simple as that.

EDIT

Also, its worth reading the definitions of cycle lanes, cycle paths and cycle streets as well as the full page I link to, probably the most refreshing definitions of cycling and infrastructure Ive read.

Spot on.

The approach in cycling-friendly countries takes safety seriously, by looking at traffic speeds and quantity of motor traffic per day on a road-by-road basis. So, for example a busy dual carriageway would defo have well-separated cycling infrastructure, but a quiet residential street would not. But there are plenty of roads that are "in-between".

I think more important than "segregation or none" is a simple matter of cyclist safety, and by cyclist I mean the 10 year old going to school. The real problem in the UK is that politicians and traffic planners don't take this at all seriously, so for example think that space for parked cars is more important than space for a cycle path/lane. But they also miss ideas like this cycle street one.

BTW have a good look at the presto site. A good friend of mine (who hails from Vancouver) is now working on that project.

 

[Richard Mann]

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Humboldtstraße, Bremen, Germany&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=53.075207,8.822653&spn=0.010223,0.024505&sll=53.120031,8.736286&sspn=0.326782,0.784149&oq=humboldt&t=h&hnear=Humboldtstraße, 28203 Bremen, Germany&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.075207,8.822653&panoid=l2zI1OwSuRwbAZRQ4S1uEw&cbp=12,89.53,,0,4.73

The road will be shared. Also in a 30kph zone.

The concept of a "cycle street" is an interesting one, but the rules vary from country to country. Apparently Belgium have just changed theirs, making it illegal for motorised traffic to overtake cyclists. Here, there is no such law at present. But safety obviously also depends on how much traffic there is. At present this street has around 8,000 cyclists and 8,000 motorists per day.

8000 motorised vehicles per day is a bit busy for a narrow street; diverting that traffic to a main road would generally be advised (though looking at the pavement parking on Bismarckstrasse, perhaps that's not your only problem...)

 

[wiggydiggy]

8000 motorised vehicles per day is a bit busy for a narrow street; diverting that traffic to a main road would generally be advised (though looking at the pavement parking on Bismarckstrasse, perhaps that's not your only problem...)

Dont forget the 8000 cyclists

Would that figure have been achieved on that street, if the lane had not been there in first place?

Perhaps yes in that country as they have a different mindset on the continent it seems when it comes to cycling and sharing space, but over here with cycling perceived as being 'risky' (I hesitate to say dangerous) do we need the lanes and segregation to get to a 50/50 (or better) balance?

I think so. And once the numbers of cyclists has reached critical mass (to coin a phrase) that is when street rather than segregated cycling becomes necessary.

 

[dellzeqq]

8000 motorised vehicles per day is a bit busy for a narrow street; diverting that traffic to a main road would generally be advised (though looking at the pavement parking on Bismarckstrasse, perhaps that's not your only problem...)

I frankly don't believe the 8000 a day thing.

 

[dellzeqq]

"Cycle streets
A cycle street is a road so designed that cyclists dominate visually and motorized traffic is tolerated as a guest. The look like street-wide cycle track on which motorized traffic is allowed. Legally, a cycle street is a mixed traffic road. A cycle street can be considered on main cycling routes on local estate access roads."
.

round our way we call it the A24

 

[wiggydiggy]

round our way we call it the A24

The A24 is more than 50 miles long, is there a specific part of it you feel meets the 'cycle street' definition? As I think, depending on which part of your are on, it has examples of all types of infrastructure currently used in the UK.

 

[atomheartfather]

I frankly don't believe the 8000 a day thing.

Mea culpa. Checked the figures - the correct figure is 4000 for each (motorists/cyclists). They come from scribbled notes I made at a public meeting about the project. The road runs parallel to a trunk road that's often congested, and also has the main hospital at one end, so can get busy during the day, but quiet at night. In fact the speaker said the car numbers increase "a lot" at the hospital end. A lot of smaller streets cross it, and as I understand it the plan is to remove all markings at these (shared space). Be interesting to see how things go. I'll do a proper count and some pix once the thing is finished later in the year ;-)

 

[wiggydiggy]

Mea culpa. Checked the figures - the correct figure is 4000 for each (motorists/cyclists). They come from scribbled notes I made at a public meeting about the project. The road runs parallel to a trunk road that's often congested, and also has the main hospital at one end, so can get busy during the day, but quiet at night. In fact the speaker said the car numbers increase "a lot" at the hospital end. A lot of smaller streets cross it, and as I understand it the plan is to remove all markings at these (shared space). Be interesting to see how things go. I'll do a proper count and some pix once the thing is finished later in the year ;-)

Still 50/50 split though isnt it, which (from a page I found) compares with A24 Dellzeqq mentioned: " In 2009 the 12 hour traffic count found that 29,494 motor vehicles used the route, but only 154 cyclists." http://transportretort.wordpress.com/2011/04/21/is-the-a24-really-good-cycle-infrastructure/

The A24 BTW on that page as good and bad facilities.

 

[dellzeqq]

Wrong part of the A24

indeed. For most of the northern stretch cycles outnumber cars by quite a way. Indeed, if memory serves, I remember Adrian finding the A24 a bit frustrating - those bikes kept on getting in the way!

 

[Richard Mann]

Mea culpa. Checked the figures - the correct figure is 4000 for each (motorists/cyclists). They come from scribbled notes I made at a public meeting about the project. The road runs parallel to a trunk road that's often congested, and also has the main hospital at one end, so can get busy during the day, but quiet at night. In fact the speaker said the car numbers increase "a lot" at the hospital end. A lot of smaller streets cross it, and as I understand it the plan is to remove all markings at these (shared space). Be interesting to see how things go. I'll do a proper count and some pix once the thing is finished later in the year ;-)

4000mvpd & 30kph - should be fine to mix bikes & cars at that volume (according to the German ERA guidance, and also the Dutch guidance). It's at the upper end of the range, but tracks shouldn't be necessary.

 

[wiggydiggy]

4000mvpd & 30kph - should be fine to mix bikes & cars at that volume (according to the German ERA guidance, and also the Dutch guidance). It's at the upper end of the range, but tracks shouldn't be necessary.

That'd be my view as well for that road, but did the tracks that were there play a part in getting that many cyclists onto the route in the first place? I'd say so.

The A24 where there is not that critical mass (154 to 29,494 ratio on the section I linked to) it needs that segregation, and it needs to be well designed, before more cyclists will consider the route at all.

At busier (in terms of the number of cyclists) sections of the A24 segregation isnt needed as that critical mass of cyclists has already been achieved.